Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile storytelling from the trenches

Lai-Ling Su: Why the Us-Versus-Them Mentality Is the Fastest Path to Team Self-Destruction
Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes.
 
"The quickest way to self-destruction is to have an us-versus-them mentality. Because it permeates into every behavior, every action or inaction, and it impacts every single outcome as a result of it." - Lai-Ling Su
 
Lai-Ling shares a compelling story about a leadership team in healthcare technology that was self-sabotaging their way into non-delivery—so much so that critical commercial outcomes were at serious risk. Yet the team themselves couldn't see it; it was invisible to them. She identifies three layers of the us-versus-them dynamic that needed unpicking. 
First, recent M&A activity had merged a larger corporate entity with a smaller, more nimble one, and people remained ferociously loyal to leaders from their old organizations. 
Second, business goals were separate from technology goals, causing people to fall back to people-pleasing within their direct reporting lines rather than collaborating on shared purpose. 
Third, the tension between growth ambitions and addressing legacy activities created another divide. What struck Lai-Ling most was how these "classic" patterns were invisible to those experiencing them—they just accepted it as part of doing business. The destruction wasn't always stormy and visible; sometimes it was silent, with work piling up, nothing getting done, yet no one overtly upset.
 
In this segment, we talk about the importance of creating awareness and how Scrum Masters must be willing to point out these patterns, even at the risk of being seen as the odd ones out.
 
Self-reflection Question: What "classic" anti-patterns might be invisible in your organization right now because everyone has accepted them as just part of doing business?
Featured Book of the Week: The Checklist Manifesto by Atul Gawande
Lai-Ling approaches the book recommendation differently—she believes no single book has fundamentally influenced her, but books as a collective have made her who she is. She emphasizes reading far and wide across all topics and genres, looking for patterns in unexpected places. One standout is The Checklist Manifesto by Atul Gawande, which challenges the perception that checklists take away autonomy. Gawande writes about how checklists are a rapid-fire communication tool that can mean the difference between a seriously injured soldier dying on the battlefield or making it to a hospital with a good chance of survival. Lai-Ling also recommends When Breath Becomes Air by Paul Kalanithi, about a surgeon who became a cancer patient and had to navigate a massive identity shift—much like the identity shift we ask leaders to make during transformations.
 
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🔥In the ruthless world of fintech, success isn't just about innovation—it's about coaching!🔥
Angela thought she was just there to coach a team. But now, she's caught in the middle of a corporate espionage drama that could make or break the future of digital banking. Can she help the team regain their mojo and outwit their rivals, or will the competition crush their ambitions? As alliances shift and the pressure builds, one thing becomes clear: this isn't just about the product—it's about the people.
 
🚨 Will Angela's coaching be enough? Find out in Shift: From Product to People—the gripping story of high-stakes innovation and corporate intrigue.
 
Buy Now on Amazon
 
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About Lai-Ling Su
 
Lai-Ling fixes the gap between operating model design and real-world delivery through her interim executive, consulting, capability building, and executive coaching work. She also equips product and transformation leaders with the capability everyone expects but no one teaches - how to navigate the people, politics, and performance expectations that come with their jobs.
 
You can link with Lai-Ling Su on LinkedIn.

Lai-Ling Su: The Product and Service Story That Every Scrum Master Needs to Hear
Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes.
 
"It was kind of at that moment that I realized, like, community was about providing people with the opportunities that they otherwise wouldn't have had. And whilst you could technically execute your product or service well, the customer experience is fundamentally a deeply emotional one." - Lai-Ling Su
 
Lai-Ling shares a powerful story from when she was just 11 years old, running front of house at her family's restaurant inside an Australian workers' club. When a popular band was booked to play on a Saturday night, the venue reached max capacity—and almost everyone wanted food. With no ticketed order system and only her memory to match orders to customers, chaos ensued. 
One father approached her, yelling about how long his food was taking. At the end of the night, Lai-Ling mustered the courage that only an 11-year-old possesses and asked him point-blank why he had reacted so strongly. His answer floored her: he only got to see his son every other weekend, and this evening was supposed to create a cherished memory together. Instead, they were hangry most of the night. 
This moment taught Lai-Ling that customer experience is fundamentally emotional—it's not about the food, but about what the interaction means to the people we serve. For the next decade, she continuously inspected every aspect of their restaurant operations, always seeking to improve how they served customers while remaining commercially viable.
In this episode, we refer to the "Scrum Masters are the future CEO's, and a podcast by the Lean Enterprise Institute" blog post by Vasco. 
 
Self-reflection Question: When was the last time you paused to understand the deeper meaning behind a stakeholder's frustration, rather than just addressing the surface-level complaint?
 
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🔥In the ruthless world of fintech, success isn't just about innovation—it's about coaching!🔥
Angela thought she was just there to coach a team. But now, she's caught in the middle of a corporate espionage drama that could make or break the future of digital banking. Can she help the team regain their mojo and outwit their rivals, or will the competition crush their ambitions? As alliances shift and the pressure builds, one thing becomes clear: this isn't just about the product—it's about the people.
 
🚨 Will Angela's coaching be enough? Find out in Shift: From Product to People—the gripping story of high-stakes innovation and corporate intrigue.
 
Buy Now on Amazon
 
[The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends]
 
About Lai-Ling Su
 
Lai-Ling fixes the gap between operating model design and real-world delivery through her interim executive, consulting, capability building, and executive coaching work. She also equips product and transformation leaders with the capability everyone expects but no one teaches - how to navigate the people, politics, and performance expectations that come with their jobs.
 
You can link with Lai-Ling Su on LinkedIn.

BONUS: From Combat Pilot to Scrum Master - How Military Leadership Transforms Agile Teams
In this bonus episode, we explore a fascinating career transition with Nate Amidon, a former Air Force combat pilot who now helps software teams embed military-grade leadership principles into their Agile practices. Nate shares how the high-stakes discipline of aviation translates directly into building high-performing development teams, and why veterans make exceptional Scrum Masters.
The Brief-Execute-Debrief Cycle: Aviation Meets Agile
"We would mission brief in the morning and make sure everyone was on the same page. Then we problem-solved our way through the day, debriefed after, and did it again. When I learned about what Agile was, I realized it's the exact same thing."
 
Nate's transition from flying C-17 cargo planes to working with Agile teams wasn't as jarring as you might expect. Flying missions that lasted 2-3 weeks with a crew of 5-7 people taught him the fundamentals of iterative work: daily alignment, continuous problem-solving, and regular reflection. The brief-execute-debrief cycle that every military pilot learns mirrors the sprint cadence that Agile teams follow. Time-boxing wasn't new to him either—when you're flying, you only have so much fuel, so deadlines aren't arbitrary constraints but physical realities that demand disciplined execution.
In this episode with Christian Boucousis, we also discuss the brief-execute-debrief cycle in detail. 
In this segment, we also refer to Cynefin, and the classification of complexity. 
Alignment: The Real Purpose Behind Ceremonies
"It's really important to make sure everyone understands why you're doing what you're doing. We don't brief, execute, debrief just because—we do it because we know that getting everybody on the same page is really important."
 
One of the most valuable insights Nate brings to his work with software teams is the understanding that Agile ceremonies aren't bureaucratic checkboxes—they're alignment mechanisms. The purpose of sprint planning, daily stand-ups, and retrospectives is to ensure everyone knows the mission and can adapt when circumstances change. Interestingly, Nate notes that as teams become more high-performing, briefings get shorter and more succinct. The discipline remains, but the overhead decreases as shared context grows.
The Art of Knowing When to Interrupt
"There are times when you absolutely should not interrupt an engineer. Every shoulder tap is a 15-minute reset for them to get back into the game. But there are also times when you absolutely should shoulder tap them."
 
High-performing teams understand the delicate balance between deep work and necessary communication. Nate shares an aviation analogy: when loadmasters are loading complex cargo like tanks and helicopters, interrupting them with irrelevant updates would be counterproductive. But if you discover that cargo shouldn't be on the plane, that's absolutely worth the interruption. This judgment—knowing what matters enough to break flow—is something veterans develop through high-stakes experience. Building this awareness across a software team requires:
 
Understanding what everyone is working on

Knowing the bigger picture of the mission

Creating psychological safety so people feel comfortable speaking up

Developing shared context through daily stand-ups and retrospectives

Why Veterans Make Exceptional Scrum Masters
"I don't understand why every junior officer getting out of the military doesn't just get automatically hired as a Scrum Master. If you were to say what we want a Scrum Master to do, and what a junior military officer does—it's line for line."
 
Nate's company, Form100 Consulting, specifically hires former military officers and senior NCOs for Agile roles, often bringing them on without tech experience. The results consistently exceed expectations because veterans bring foundational leadership skills that are difficult to develop elsewhere: showing up on time, doing what you say you'll do, taking care of team members, seeing the forest through the trees. These intangible qualities—combined with the ability to stay calm, listen actively, and maintain integrity under pressure—make for exceptional servant leaders in the software development space.
The Onboarding Framework for Veterans
"When somebody joins, we have assigned everybody a wingman—a dedicated person that they check in with regularly to bounce ideas off, to ask questions."
 
Form100's approach to transitioning veterans into tech demonstrates the same principles they advocate for Agile teams. They screen carefully for the right personality fit, provide dedicated internal training on Agile methodologies and program management, and pair every new hire with a wingman. This military unit culture helps bridge the gap between active duty service and the private sector, addressing one of the biggest challenges: the expectation gap around leadership standards that exists between military and civilian organizations.
Extreme Ownership: Beyond Process Management
"To be a good Scrum Master, you have to take ownership of the team's execution. If the product requirements aren't good, it's a Scrum Master's job to help. If QA is the problem, take ownership. You should be the vessel and ownership of the entire process of value delivery."
 
One of Nate's core philosophies comes from Jocko Willink's Extreme Ownership. Too many Scrum Masters limit themselves to being "process people" who set meetings and run ceremonies. True servant leadership means owning everything that affects the team's ability to deliver value—even things technically outside your job description. When retrospectives devolve into listing external factors beyond the team's control, the extreme ownership mindset reframes the conversation: "Did we give the stakeholder the right information? Did they make a great decision based on bad information we provided?" This shift from blame to ownership drives genuine continuous improvement.
Building Feedback Loops in Complex Environments
"In the military, we talk about the OODA loop. Everything gets tighter, we get better—that's why we do the debrief."
 
Understanding whether you're operating in a complicated or complex domain (referencing the Cynefin framework) determines how tight your feedback loops need to be. In complex environments—where most software development lives—feedback loops aren't just for reacting to what happened; they're for probing and understanding what's changing. Sprint goals become essential because without knowing where you're headed, you can't detect when circumstances have shifted. The product owner role becomes critical as the voice connecting business priorities to team execution, ensuring the mission stays current even when priorities change mid-sprint.
Recommended Resources
Nate recommends the following books: 
Team of Teams by General McChrystal

Extreme Ownership by Jocko Willink

 
About Nate Amidon
 
Nate is a former Air Force combat pilot and founder of Form100 Consulting. He helps software teams embed leadership at the ground level, translating military principles into Agile practices. With a focus on alignment, accountability, and execution, Nate empowers organizations to lead from within and deliver real results in a dynamic tech landscape.
 
You can link with Nate Amidon on LinkedIn and learn more at Form100 Consulting.

BONUS: From Individual AI Wins to Team-Wide Transformation
What happens when the leaders we trust to guide transformation become the bottleneck slowing it down? In this episode, Monica Marquez—with 25+ years in people transformation at Goldman Sachs, Google, and beyond—reveals why the old equation of effort equals success is breaking down, and what leaders must unlearn to thrive in the age of AI.
The Leadership Crisis Nobody Trained You For
"No one ever really teaches you what it really takes to be a leader. You know what you do really well, but how do you help other people do that too? That's when I realized it comes down to becoming a really good leader."
 
Monica's origin story captures a universal struggle: being promoted for technical excellence, then discovering that leading people requires completely different skills. She spent her career at organizations like Goldman Sachs, Bank of America, Ernst & Young, and Google realizing that systems weren't built for everyone—and that the real work of leadership is redesigning those systems to unlock human potential. Today, through her company Flipwork, she helps leaders and teams become what she calls "agentic humans"—people who leverage AI to get ahead rather than getting left behind.
The Command and Control Trap
"Most leadership development still rewards the command and control archetype. The person who has all the answers, the decisive hero. But AI moves so fast that when you think you've fixed something, it changes the next day. Leaders are starting to become bottlenecks."
 
The research shows the problem clearly: middle management is where AI adoption stalls. These leaders cling to command and control because relinquishing it feels like losing their value. Worse, they have an unspoken fear of managing AI agents—they don't want to be liable for outputs they don't fully control. Monica reframes this: treat your AI tools like an artificial intern, not artificial intelligence. You wouldn't take an intern's first draft and hand it to leadership. You train them, provide context, and finesse the output. The same discipline applies to LLMs.
Rewriting the Success Equation
"Effort = success is the old equation. That's pre-AI. The new equation is impact equals success. Output equals success, and impact equals worth."
 
This might be the most important shift leaders need to make. When tasks that took 4 hours now take 30 minutes, deeply conditioned beliefs about work ethic get threatened. Monica sees leaders questioning their worth because they're producing faster. "I was always taught I have to work twice as hard to get half as far," she shares. "Now what used to take me 10 hours, I can get done in 4. Am I not worthy anymore of being a high performer?" The answer is to measure impact, not effort—and that requires rewiring beliefs that may be decades old.
Why Individual AI Adoption Doesn't Scale
"Teams are using AI as individual contributors, but they aren't using AI in their actual workflows and the handoffs. That's why leaders are scratching their heads, like, why aren't we seeing the ROI bubble up into the team?"
 
Here's the gap most organizations miss: individuals save an hour or two per day using AI for personal productivity, but the team never sees compounding benefits. The handoffs between team members remain manual. The friction points persist. Monica's solution is "flip labs"—90-day sprints where teams take one critical workflow, dissect it, and rebuild it with AI. Where can AI handle the $10 tasks so humans can focus on $10,000 decisions? Where should humans remain in the loop? IKEA did this with customer service, retraining displaced workers into design roles. Revenue increased without adding headcount.
Leading Through Uncertainty
"We're humans wired for certainty, but Agile is a system designed for uncertainty. That's where the behavioral psychology comes in—how do you help people move forward despite the uncertainty?"
 
The fundamental challenge is biological: our brains seek certainty, but the only certain thing now is that change will come faster than we can adapt. Monica works with teams to create psychologically safe spaces for experimentation—AB testing old workflows against AI-augmented ones, measuring outputs, and learning from failures. "Sometimes we learn more from the failures than we do the successes," she notes. The leaders who create permission for testing and learning will pull ahead; those who demand control will become the bottleneck that slows their entire organization.
 
About Monica Marquez
Monica Marquez is a leadership and workplace AI advisor with 25+ years in people transformation. She coined the "returnship" at Goldman Sachs, helped found Google's Product Inclusion Council, and now guides leaders and teams to adopt AI, agile, and inclusion practices that drive results through her company Flipwork, Inc.
 
You can connect with Monica Marquez on LinkedIn and subscribe to her Ay, Ay, Ay! AI newsletter at themonicamarquez.com.

BONUS: The Future of Seeing—Why AI Vision Will Transform Medicine and Human Perception
What if the next leap in AI isn't about thinking, but about seeing? In this episode, Daniel Sodickson—physicist, medical imaging pioneer, and author of "The Future of Seeing"—argues we're on the edge of a vision revolution that will change medicine, technology, and even human perception itself.
From Napkin Sketch to Parallel Imaging
"I was doodling literally on a napkin in a piano bar in Boston and came up with a way to get multiple lines at once. I ran to my mentor and said, 'Hey, I have this idea, never mind my paper.' And he said, 'Who are you again? Sure, why not.' And it worked."
 
Daniel's journey into imaging began with a happy accident. While studying why MRI couldn't capture the beating heart fast enough, he realized the fundamental bottleneck: MRI machines scan one line at a time, like old CRT screens. His insight—imaging in parallel to capture multiple lines simultaneously—revolutionized the field. This connection between natural vision (our eyes capture entire scenes at once) and artificial imaging systems set him on a 29-year journey exploring how we can see what was once invisible.
Upstream AI: Changing What We Measure
"Most often when we envision AI, we think of it as this downstream process. We generate our data, make our image, then let AI loose instead of our brains. To me, that's limited. Why aren't we thinking of tasks that AI can do that no human could ever do?"
 
Daniel introduces a crucial distinction between "downstream" and "upstream" AI. Downstream AI takes existing images and interprets them—essentially competing with human experts. Upstream AI changes the game entirely by redesigning what data we gather in the first place. If we know a machine learning system will process the output, we can build cheaper, more accessible sensors. Imagine monitoring devices built into beds or chairs that don't produce perfect images but can detect whether you've changed since your last comprehensive scan. AI fills in the gaps using learned context about how bodies and signals behave.
The Power of Context and Memory
"The world we see is a lie. Two eyes are not nearly enough to figure out exactly where everything is in space. What the brain is doing is using everything it's learned about the world—how light falls on surfaces, how big people are compared to objects—and filling in what's missing."
 
Our brains don't passively receive images; they actively construct reality using massive amounts of learned context. Daniel argues we can give imaging machines the same superpower. By training AI on temporal patterns—how healthy bodies change over time, what signals precede disease—we create systems with "memory" that can make sophisticated judgments from incomplete data. Today's signal, combined with your history and learned patterns from millions of others, becomes far more informative than any single pristine image could be.
From Reactive to Proactive Health
"I've started to wonder why we use these amazing MRI machines only once we already know you're sick. Why do we use them reactively rather than proactively?"
 
This question drove Daniel to leave academia after 29 years and join Function Health, a company focused on proactive imaging and testing to catch disease before it develops. The vision: a GPS for your health. By combining regular blood panels, MRI scans, and wearable data, AI can monitor whether you look like yourself or have changed in worrisome ways. The goal isn't replacing expert diagnosis but creating an early warning system that surfaces problems while they're still easily treatable.
Seeing How We See
"Sometimes when I'm walking along, everything I'm seeing just fades away. And what I see instead is how I'm seeing. I imagine light bouncing off of things and landing in my eye, this buzz of light zipping around as fast as anything in the universe can go."
 
After decades studying vision, Daniel experiences the world differently. He finds himself deconstructing his own perception—tracing sight lines, marveling at how we've evolved to turn chaos of sensation into spatially organized information. This meta-awareness extends to his work: every new imaging modality has driven scientific discovery, from telescopes enabling the Copernican Revolution to MRI revealing the living body. We're now at another inflection point where AI doesn't just interpret images but transforms our relationship with perception itself.
 
In this episode, we refer to An Immense World: How Animal Senses Reveal the Hidden Realms Around Us by Ed Young on animal perception, and A Path Towards Autonomous Machine Intelligence by Yann LeCun on building AI more like the brain.
 
About Daniel Sodickson
Daniel K. Sodickson is a physicist in medicine and chief medical scientist at Function Health. Previously at NYU, and a gold medalist and past president of the International Society for Magnetic Resonance in Medicine, he pioneers AI-driven imaging and is author of The Future of Seeing.