The Westminster Tradition

• Rescuing a bin fire: Test and Learn and Universal Credit (Part 2)

  In this second episode on Universal Credit, we talk about how the team transitioned from catastrophic failure to remarkable success.We cover:The barriers to test and learn - from the need for certainty by leaders, to Treasury requirements for business cases, to the need to support MinistersThe lessons learnt by the 10 year in role SRO Neil Couling [sorry CCB called you Neil Coulson!!] - including ‘avoid the tyranny of the timetable’Whether test and learn will be something younger generations find easier to manage than us Gen X-ersThe glory of farewell speeches, inspired by Iain Duncan-Smith’s resignation letter.Referenced in this episode:The Institute for Government’s event From disaster to completion?Andrew Solomon’s book Far from the TreeCover art is from Nesta’s The Radical How. Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.If you want rigorous reporting on Robodebt, we recommend the work of Rick Morton at the Saturday Paper, Chris Knaus and Luke Henriques-Gomes at the Guardian, Ben Eltham at Crikey, Julian Bajkowski at The Mandarin, and of course, the Robodebt Royal Commission itself.Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected] to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 'Til next time!

  --------  

  45:16
• From hot mess to delivered: Universal Credit and delivering system wide reform (Part 1)

  In the shadow of worries about the NDIS, do we even believe that big system reform in Australia is do-able any more? Is the juice worth the squeeze?In this first of a two part series, we explore the example of Universal Credit, a 15 year long reform agenda in the UK to combine 6 benefits into one, and, more importantly, seeking to transform the relationship of the citizen to work and welfare. In this episode we unpick how it goes from an idea that is incorporated into the UK Coalition Government’s priority list in 2010 to a £450m hot mess in 2013.We also look at the unusual (and brave) decision to keep going.Along the way, we cover:Whether radical transparency can be an answer to rescuing something when you’re in the middle of a hot mess?Whether we underestimate the importance of a ’holder of the vision’ in giant systems reform? Whether articulating a north star for reform is hard because it makes clear what you are prioritising, and, equally importantly, what you’re not?The laughable idea of low hanging fruitReferenced in the episode:Ed Milliband’s interview referencing PM Gordon Brown as an ideas factory, on Leading (The Rest is Politics)David Freud’s masterful memoir on his seminal role in Universal Credit, Clashing AgendasInstitute for Government has held a number of great events on this, including one in 2016 and another in 2025Abul Rizvi’s appearance on Joe Walker podcast on the origins of Australia’s immigration systemIntro grab is Lord David Freud from Institute for Government 2016 event, From disaster to recovery: Learning the lessons of Universal Credit Clashing Agendas.Outro grab is Tom Loosemore, former Deputy Director, Government Digital Services, from Institute for Government 2025 event, From disaster to completion? What Government can learn from the Universal Credit story? Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.If you want rigorous reporting on Robodebt, we recommend the work of Rick Morton at the Saturday Paper, Chris Knaus and Luke Henriques-Gomes at the Guardian, Ben Eltham at Crikey, Julian Bajkowski at The Mandarin, and of course, the Robodebt Royal Commission itself.Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected] to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 'Til next time!

  --------  

  40:07
• The Vanstone Files: Unpacking Ministerial Power

  In a wide ranging discussion, Alison, Caroline and Danielle come together to discuss the gems from the Amanda Vanstone interview, which examined how power, responsibility and decision-making played out at the top of government during her two decades as a federal minister.Vanstone's approach to being a minister - asking questions until understanding, visiting programs unannounced, and taking full responsibility for decisions - offers deep insights.We also canvas some less expected topics, including:Is it a boomer quality to use ALL CAPS in inconveniently located thank you notes?See the memoir of UK civil service head What Does Jeremy Think? by Suzanne HeywoodAre the best questions the ones asked by kindergarteners 'Who? What? Why?'See also Maria Katsonis LinkedIn post on The Art of Asking Smarter QuestionsAre people disinterested in history in policy making, or are we just pitching it wrong?See also Abul Rizvi on Immigration Policy on The Joe Walker Podcast Memoir of Pamela Churchill Harriman Kingmaker by Sonia PurnellWas Amanda Vanstone falling in to the classic 'good girl' trope of delivering savings, rather than posturing about plans to deliver savings?On why Australia struggles with a conversation about trade offs, see Judith Brett on How a Benthamite Political Culture Shaped Australia's Electoral System, on The Joe Walker PodcastWould we star in a documentary on tricky policy making? Or do we already have the essence of one in Utopia?Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.If you want rigorous reporting on Robodebt, we recommend the work of Rick Morton at the Saturday Paper, Chris Knaus and Luke Henriques-Gomes at the Guardian, Ben Eltham at Crikey, Julian Bajkowski at The Mandarin, and of course, the Robodebt Royal Commission itself.Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected] to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 'Til next time!

  --------  

  44:41
• The Hon Amanda Vanstone AO - Inside the Westminster Machine

  Former Senator Amanda Vanstone offers a masterclass in ministerial leadership, delivering sharp insights from her 21-year political career that are as relevant today as they were during her time in Prime Minister Howard's Cabinet. Cutting through bureaucratic excuses with remarkable clarity, she reveals how effective ministers must take full responsibility while developing practical strategies to uncover what's really happening within their departments.Vanstone's approach to ministerial oversight was refreshingly direct—phoning junior staff who prepared briefs rather than accepting sanitized information from senior executives, making unannounced visits to government-funded programs, and consistently asking "how does that work?" until satisfied with the answers. "You get what you inspect, not what you expect," she notes, emphasizing that accountability requires hands-on leadership.Her frank discussion of major reforms like the creation of Centrelink highlights how structural change requires both political courage and practical problem-solving. When departments maintained separate offices but required them to be within walking distance, she asked the obvious question: "Why not put them together?" This common-sense approach characterized her leadership across Employment, Education, Justice and Immigration portfolios.What stands out most powerfully is Vanstone's perspective on ministerial responsibility. "That's why ministers sign on the bottom line. That's why you get paid," she asserts, rejecting excuses about inherited problems or departmental advice. Her experiences with Immigration Department failures—including the wrongful deportation of Australian citizen Vivian Alvarez—taught her that when you find one serious problem, you must look deeper: "When a mouse runs out of your fridge, you think that's a mouse. When the second one comes a week later, you bring the fridge out and clean it out."Ready for straight talk about how government really works? Listen now to learn why Amanda Vanstone believes we urgently need another National Commission of Audit and how effective ministers must balance scrutiny with support to get the best from public servants.Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.If you want rigorous reporting on Robodebt, we recommend the work of Rick Morton at the Saturday Paper, Chris Knaus and Luke Henriques-Gomes at the Guardian, Ben Eltham at Crikey, Julian Bajkowski at The Mandarin, and of course, the Robodebt Royal Commission itself.Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected] to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 'Til next time!

  --------  

  1:11:40
• DOGE or GROSS (Getting Rid of Stupid Stuff) 😩: the touchy subject of efficiency in the public service

  Efficiency is in the news ... but what does it mean? How should public servants work on improving efficiency? Should we be focused on system reform, ending whole entitlements, or nibbling at the edges?How to know what kind of budget savings task you are in - deep restructuring or a cyclical contraction / expansion?Is front line v back office a helpful distinction?When are external reviews helpful, and when do they hurt?What is the role of tech in delivering savings?Referenced in the episodeInstitute for Government's reflections on PM Starmer's Rewiring the State agendaSuzanne Heywood "What does Jeremy think? Jeremy Heywood and the Making of Modern Britain"John Halligan (with Jules Wills) "The Centrelink Experiment"BBC 'Denmark's postal service to stop delivering letters'The NDIS ReviewNow for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.If you want rigorous reporting on Robodebt, we recommend the work of Rick Morton at the Saturday Paper, Chris Knaus and Luke Henriques-Gomes at the Guardian, Ben Eltham at Crikey, Julian Bajkowski at The Mandarin, and of course, the Robodebt Royal Commission itself.Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected] to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 'Til next time!

  --------  

  59:00

More Government podcasts

Trending Government podcasts

About The Westminster Tradition