Saving the World From Bad Ideas

Episode summary 
In this inaugural episode of Saving the World from Bad Ideas Season 4, host Mark Lynas is joined by scientist Joshua Elliott, director of Advanced Research for Climate Emergencies (ARC) and chief scientist at Renaissance Philanthropy, to discuss Earth's tipping points and rapidly changing climate systems — and how human intervention, via approaches like climate stabilization, is a fast becoming a moral imperative to combat the worst projections of climate breakdown. 
“We have been geoengineering this planet since we first developed agriculture,” says Joshua Elliott. “The tacit belief that accidental geoengineering is somehow okay, but that thoughtful, science-driven, purposeful, researched and scaled geoengineering or stabilization is somehow a horrible moral hazard. I mean, to me, that just completely defies logic.”

About WePlanet
WePlanet is an international movement campaigning for science-based solutions to the climate, nature and development crises. Through conversations like this one, we challenge bad ideas, spotlight better ones, and make the case for a more abundant, resilient and hopeful future.

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Finally a new season is launching, and Mark is ready to tell us what season 04 of Saving the world from BAD IDEAS is going to be about.

In this season-ending episode of Saving the World from Bad Ideas, host Mark Lynas is joined by environmental journalist and author George Monbiot to explore a new framework for understanding environmentalism. George argues that what is often treated as a single movement actually contains three distinct and frequently conflicting philosophies: Green Liberationism, Green Pragmatism, and Green Social Nostalgia. The conversation traces the historical roots of each tradition, from anti-colonial activism and technocratic climate policy to rural revivalism and its relationship with fascism. Along the way, Mark and George discuss population debates, food systems, ecomodernism, the influence of religion on environmental thought, and the growing challenge of far-right infiltration into parts of the green movement. It's a wide-ranging examination of the ideas and tensions that shape environmentalism.

🧠 Topics Discussed
🌱 Why environmentalism may be better understood as three competing philosophies rather than a single movement
✊ What George calls "Green Liberationism" and how it draws on civil rights, anti-colonial struggles, feminism, and social justice movements
⚙️ What "Green Pragmatism" looks like in practice, from clean energy deployment to technocratic climate governance
🌾 What George means by "Green Social Nostalgia" and why he sees it as a powerful but problematic force within environmentalism
📜 Why George argues that rural revivalism became a foundational component of twentieth-century fascist movements
🌳 How post-war environmentalism inherited ideas from both progressive and deeply conservative traditions
🍽️ Why George believes many nostalgic visions of agriculture struggle to answer basic questions about feeding large populations
👶 How population anxiety became embedded in parts of environmental thought and why George sees it as politically unhelpful
⛪ How Christian traditions, pastoral imagery, and millenarian thinking continue to shape environmental narratives
🧘 How wellness culture, alternative health movements, and environmental politics can become vulnerable to far-right influence
🌍 What figures like RFK Jr., Vandana Shiva, and other controversial environmental voices reveal about ideological drift within green movements
🍔 How precision fermentation, microbial protein, and cultivated foods could transform debates about meat, land use, and sustainability
🤝 Why successful environmental politics requires combining technological innovation with democratic participation and social legitimacy
🚨 Why the environmental movement may be underestimating the challenge posed by far-right actors adopting green rhetoric

👤 Guest Bio
George Monbiot is an environmental journalist, author, and campaigner known for his work on ecology, politics, land use, food systems, and climate change. A longtime columnist and public intellectual, he has written extensively on environmental justice, rewilding, democracy, and the social forces shaping ecological crises.

📚 Recommended Reading & Resources
📖 Feral — George Monbiot
📖 Regenesis — George Monbiot
📖 The Anatomy of Fascism by Robert Paxton
📖 Works by Wendell Berry
📖 Writings and debates surrounding Paul Kingsnorth and the Dark Mountain Project

💬 Quote Highlights
💬 “You can have rural revivalism without fascism, but you can’t have fascism without rural revivalism.”
— George Monbiot
💬 “Power and politics don't disappear when you push people out of the way.”
— George Monbiot
💬 “You needed the technologies in order to realise the more political liberationist vision.”
— George Monbiot
💬 “We’ve been far too unprepared for the takeover of aspects of our movement by the far right.”
— George Monbiot

🌐 About WePlanet
WePlanet is an international movement campaigning for science-based solutions to the climate, nature and development crises.

📥 Join the Conversation
💬 ⁠podcast@weplanet.org⁠
📩 ⁠https://weplanet.org/podcast⁠
👁️⁠ https://twitter.com/weplanetint⁠

In this episode of Saving the World from Bad Ideas, Mark Lynas speaks with Anni Pokela of Operaatio Arktis about why “Hands off Mother Earth” is no longer a serious response to the climate crisis. The conversation explores how humans are already deeply entangled with planetary systems, whether through emissions, land use, or atmospheric pollution, and why the real question is no longer whether we intervene, but how we do so responsibly. From Arctic tipping points and AMOC collapse risks to solar radiation management, social license, indigenous engagement, and the politics of research, this is a probing discussion about climate intervention in a world where inaction is itself a form of intervention.

🧠 Topics Discussed
🧊 Why Arctic tipping points pushed former climate activists to rethink the limits of conventional climate politics
🌍 Why the term “geoengineering” may be misleading if humans have already been reshaping the planet for centuries
🌊 Why the weakening AMOC has become a major concern in Finland and across the Nordic region
☀️ How solar radiation management, especially stratospheric aerosol injection, entered the climate debate
☁️ What marine cloud brightening is, and why it is being explored in places like Australia
⚖️ Why climate intervention has to be understood through risk comparison, not moral purity
🗳️ Why shutting down research is undemocratic, especially for countries on the front lines of climate impacts
🚨 How the “dangerous distraction” argument can end up policing climate discourse instead of opening it
🧪 Why more public, transparent, internationally shared research matters before private actors shape the field
🧭 What Scopex revealed about indigenous consent, scientific arrogance, and the need for better governance
🤝 Why Anni argues that these technologies should be approached through entanglement, responsibility, and democratic legitimacy rather than technological denial
🌐 Why the biggest risks may lie less in the particles themselves than in geopolitics, power, and unequal decision-making
📚 Why this whole field needs more input from humanities, philosophy, sociology, and justice-oriented perspectives, not just climate modeling
👩‍🏫 Guest Bio
Anni Pokela is part of Operaatio Arktis, a Finnish climate strategy and communications organization founded by former Extinction Rebellion Finland activists. The group works with researchers and institutions to support responsible, ethically sustainable climate intervention research, with a particular focus on Arctic risks, tipping points, justice, and democratic governance.

📚 Recommended Reading & Resources
Operaatio Arktis
Research on AMOC weakening and Arctic tipping points
Work on solar radiation management and marine cloud brightening
Discussions around Scopex, social license, and indigenous consent
Research on climate intervention governance, justice, and public legitimacy

💬 Quote Highlights
💬 “The question then ceases to be whether we should intervene or not. The question then becomes how do we do it?”
Anni Pokela

💬 “How are we responsibly in that relationship and in that entanglement with the planet?”
Anni Pokela

💬 “Shutting down public research around this topic... it’s madness.”
Anni Pokela

💬 “It only sort of benefits the people who want to do this in the shadows.”
Anni Pokela

💬 “Things. You know, when we... have the blue dot that we can save... the question then kind of ceases to be whether we should intervene or not.”
Anni Pokela

🌐 About WePlanet
WePlanet is an international movement campaigning for science-based solutions to the climate, nature and development crises. Through conversations like this one, we challenge bad ideas, spotlight better ones, and make the case for a more abundant, resilient and hopeful future.

📥 Join the Conversation
💬 podcast@weplanet.org 
📩 https://weplanet.org/podcast
👁️ https://twitter.com/weplanetint

In this episode of Saving the World from Bad Ideas, Mark Lynas speaks with global ecologist Tom Crowther about a seductive but dangerous assumption: just leave it to the market. While part of the conversation focuses directly on capitalism, inequality, poverty, and wealth redistribution, the discussion is much broader than economics alone. Drawing on Tom’s new book Nature’s Echo, they explore how feedback loops shape everything from the birth of stars to the spread of ideas, the dynamics of ecosystems, the structure of societies, and the possibility of ecological recovery. The central argument is that markets can generate growth, innovation, and momentum, but without balancing forces they also drive instability, degradation, and collapse. It is a wide-ranging conversation about regeneration, resilience, scientific thinking, and how human systems might better mirror the stabilising logic of the natural world.
🧠 Topics Discussed
🔁 Why feedback loops are one of the most useful ways to understand nature and society
🌌 How the same looping dynamics help explain the formation of stars, life, and ecosystems
😱 Why climate doomism can become self-fulfilling if it closes off regenerative possibilities
⚡ Why renewables and electrification may now be driven by powerful self-reinforcing momentum
📉 Why no exponential growth system lasts forever, and why overshoot matters
🌱 How regenerative feedback loops can build when livelihoods improve alongside nature
🚜 Why Tom distinguishes regenerative livelihoods from simplistic anti-industrial romanticism
🌾 How nature loss can eventually reduce agricultural yields, even in intensive systems
🥩 Why plant-based proteins and nuclear energy could radically reduce ecological pressure
💸 Why poverty is one of the strongest drivers of environmental degradation
🧾 How wealth redistribution can act as a stabilising feedback in both society and ecology
🌳 What the trillion trees controversy got wrong about restoration
🗺️ How the Restore platform helps land stewards, funders, and the public support regeneration on the ground
🧪 Why science needs both rigour and humility, especially when defining the world in fixed categories
🧠 How constructivist thinking, belief, and consensus shape the way societies understand reality
👩‍🏫 Guest Bio
Dr Tom Crowther is a global ecologist working across multiple universities, with his foundation based in Switzerland. His research spans biodiversity, forests, restoration, agriculture, and the feedback loops that shape planetary systems. He is also the author of Nature’s Echo: Harnessing Ancient Feedback Loops to Heal a Changing Planet, which is now available.
📚 Recommended Reading & Resources
Nature’s Echo: Harnessing Ancient Feedback Loops to Heal a Changing Planet by Tom Crowther
The Restore platform
Research on ecological restoration, regenerative livelihoods, and nature recovery
Work on feedback loops in climate, biodiversity, and social systems
Writing and debate on trillion trees, reforestation, and restoration policy
💬 Quote Highlights
💬 “For me, the bad idea is that we’re doomed to a bleak future.”
Tom Crowther
💬 “There’s unbelievable potential for regenerative loops to build momentum as well.”
Tom Crowther
💬 “I am trying to think like a natural system.”
Tom Crowther
💬 “I think our economic system needs to perfectly mirror that.”
Tom Crowther
💬 “Poverty is the biggest driver of degradation.”
Tom Crowther
💬 “When they are lifted out of poverty, that is when nature thrives and they start to thrive more, which makes nature thrive more.”
Tom Crowther
🌐 About WePlanet
WePlanet is an international movement campaigning for science-based solutions to the climate, nature and development crises. Through conversations like this one, we challenge bad ideas, spotlight better ones, and make the case for a more abundant, resilient and hopeful future.
📥 Join the Conversation
💬 podcast@weplanet.org
📩 https://weplanet.org/podcast
👁️ https://twitter.com/weplanetint