Take 5

Genesis Owusu is one of Australia's most thrilling new artists.
Born Kofi Owusu-Ansah, he immigrated to Canberra with his family when he was just two years old. Almost immediately he felt like an odd one out. And he used that feeling to get weird.
20 odd years later, his music, visuals, and storytelling has resonated with millions. He's won the ARIA for Album of the Year twice (first for Smiling with No Teeth in 2021, and then with Struggler in 2023), and leads the nominations again this year for his third album, Redstar Wu & the Worldwide Scourge. All across the world people sing his praises. Barack Obama has a Genesis song on his summer playlist ('Gold Chains'). And he's done it all, his way.
Genesis Owusu's song choices: 
Cibo Matto - 'Birthday Cake'
N.E.R.D. - 'Rock Star'
Lupe Fiasco - 'American Terrorist [Ft. Matthew Santos]'
Prince - 'All the Critics Love U in New York'
Tyler, The Creator - 'I Think'
00:00 Introduction: From Ghana to ARIA Award-Winning Musician
00:25 "Strap in for a Conversation Where You Could Frame Just About Every Sentence"
00:33 Born Kofi Owusu-Ansah: Immigrating to Canberra at Two Years Old
00:49 "20-Odd Years Later, His Music, Visuals, and Storytelling Has Resonated With Millions"
01:10 Barack Obama Has a Genesis Song on His Summer Playlist
01:20 "It's a Pretty Big Call to Give a 28-Year-Old Artist the Theme of Evolution"
01:45 Extended Podcast Edit: The First Video Game Play to Make It Into a Take 5
02:06 Kofi's Drive and Self-Belief: Going Back to Early Days in Canberra
02:07 "I Was Born Into a Family of Music Appreciators, Not Music Technicians"
02:17 Immigrating From Ghana: Ghanaian Highlife Music and "Sizzling Jollof on the Stove"
02:32 Mom the Gospel Choir Leader: "Her World Was Gospel"
02:39 "She's a Good Singer, Right? Runs in the Family"
02:45 Older Brother's World: Red Hot Chili Peppers, Rage Against the Machine, Nirvana
02:54 Dad Buying Random Records "Just 'Cause It Looked Fun": Saturday Cleaning Days
03:08 "One Weekend Was Missy Elliott, Then the Next Weekend Was Missy Higgins"
03:22 The Youngest in the Family: "The Converging Point for All of Those Different Worlds"
03:27 "This Feels Like a Whole Bunch of River Systems All Guiding to One Spot"
03:42 "My First Experience of Art Was an Amalgamation From All Sides"
04:01 "It's a Language. That's What I Use It For. I Use It to Communicate"
04:22 "The Emotions I Want to Elicit Sometimes Can't Be Described Through Words"
04:48 First Song: Cibo Matto, 'Birthday Cake'
04:56 "A Wild Song to Hear When You're Five Years Old"
05:03 "So Much of My Life and Artistry Comes From Fusion"
05:15 The Biggest Creative Influence: Jet Set Radio Future on the Original Xbox
05:18 Rollerblading Graffiti Artists in Neo Tokyo: "The Last Bastion of Resistance"
05:48 Soundtracked by a Pirate Radio Station: DJ Professor K
06:04 "I Turned on the Game, and It Was Like a Gust of Wind That Blew All My Hair Back"
06:28 "It's Super Abrasive and a Bit Ugly. It Taught Me That Ugly Was Also to Be Appreciated"
06:41 "20 Years Later, the First Song on Each of My Albums Is Always the Most Abrasive"
06:55 "Mutually Assured Destruction": The Opening Track Gauntlet
07:06 Pirate Radio: The First Song on His New Album Comes From This Game
07:15 "The Biggest Creative Influence in My Life": Music, Visuals, and Themes in One Pandora's Box
07:45 "In the Same Way My Parents' Different Worlds Created My World"
08:08 "All These Different Puzzle Pieces Laid Bare... to Create What Will Eventually Become Genesis Owusu"
08:53 "So Many of My First Musical Experiences Were Heraldied From This Original Chunky Xbox"
09:05 Burning CDs and Saving Music to the Xbox: "Crazy Frog Went Platinum on That Xbox"
09:22 First Ever Favorite Song: 'Gravel Pit' by Wu Tang Clan
09:38 "10 Years Later I Actually Realized That Was Wu Tang Clan"
09:47 First Time Hearing the Rolling Stones Was From Guitar Hero
09:53 "It's How Music Transports Itself Through the Generations"
09:58 "You Were Two When You Immigrated to Australia From Ghana"
10:01 Why Canberra? "The Only Person They Knew in Australia Was My Dad's Sister"
10:06 "Five Kids in a Four Bedroom, Then We Crashed With Them as Well for a Few Months"
10:31 "Were You Aware of the Sacrifice They'd Made?"
10:39 "I Grew Up Slowly Recognizing More and More What That Sacrifice Actually Meant"
10:49 Driving Past the Childhood Apartment: "So Much Smaller Than I Remembered"
11:11 "Seeing Where We Started and What My Parents Toiled to Give Me and My Brother"
11:34 Second Song: N.E.R.D., 'Rock Star'
11:44 "The Puzzle Pieces Were Starting to Be Laid in Front of Me, but There Was Still the Task of Putting Them Together"
12:02 "Who Am I? What's My Identity?"
12:05 Watching Rage: "My Introduction to N.E.R.D and Pharrell. They Presented a New Archetype"
12:19 "I Was in Primary School. Me and My Brother Were the Only Black Kids in the School"
12:31 "Very White Space, Very White School, Very White City"
12:43 "Two Completely Different People Meeting for the First Time"
12:51 "A Cultural Idea of What Black People Were Supposed to Be"
13:01 "Two Choices: Eddie Murphy Funny Man or 50 Cent Gangster"
13:09 "The Novelty or the Threat. Neither Captured the Complexity of What a Human Being Is"
13:13 The N.E.R.D Video: "The First Time I Saw Puzzle Pieces Start to Connect"
13:20 "Cool as Hell Black Guy, but Still Kind of Baby Face"
13:37 Skaters, Guitars, Hip Hop Bravado, Bape Fashion: "Everything Coming Together"
13:59 "Started the Formulation of My First Semblance of... Maybe My Identity Can Be More Complex"
14:17 "Pharrell Standing Out the Front of N.E.R.D Saying 'Look at Me, I'm a Rock Star'"
14:31 "Individuality Is the Winning Part of This"
14:36 "Did You Feel Before That Your Individuality Was a Blessing or a Curse?"
14:41 "I Felt I Was Presented the Opportunity to Either Lean Into Being the Outsider or Assimilate"
15:10 "Why Am I Even Trying to Fit Into a Mold That Is Not What I Am?"
15:17 "I Immediately Just Tried to Lean Into the Outsider Role. I Didn't Know What That Looked Like"
15:25 "The Music of N.E.R.D Made It a Bit More Clear as to What That Could Look Like"
15:35 "Once Again, an Amalgamation. Everything Is a Fusion"
15:39 "It Feels Like This Must've Been a Real Light Bulb Moment"
15:43 "Definitely. Everything Makes Sense Now. 'Oh, This Exists. You Can Be That.'"
15:57 "Especially in the Context of Blackness. Breaking of a Barrier That Someone Else Had Put Around Us"
16:10 "The Breaking of Barriers Transcends Through My Art and My Identity"
16:15 "No, You Cannot Tell Me Who I'm Supposed to Be or What I'm Supposed to Sound Like"
16:21 "If Anything, I'll Do What I Do Out of Spite Just Because You've Told Me I Can't"
16:25 "That's a Lot of Confidence for a Little Kid to Have"
16:35 "I Don't Know Where That Came From"
16:43 "I Just Began Self-Actualization So Early, Because It Was So Clear That I Was Not Like the Others"
16:56 "When You Are Inside the In Group, You Don't Necessarily Have to Think About Who You Are"
17:03 "The Difference Was So Stark, the Journey of Self-Actualization Started a Lot Earlier"
17:18 "How Old Were You?" Between Year Two and Year Five
17:35 "What Was School Like?" "They Were Fun. They Were Cool."
17:41 "I Hear You Were School Captain" in Year Nine and SRC in Primary School
17:49 "This Confidence Is Carrying Over to Everything You're Doing"
17:53 "There Was Almost a Playfulness in the Misconceptions"
18:01 "You're From Africa. Did You Have Monkeys at Your House?" "Yeah, I Got So Many Monkeys, Man"
18:14 "I Would Play With It a Lot"
18:19 "What Else Can You Do When Someone Is So Ignorant About the Nation You've Come From?"
18:24 "There Is a Response of Frustration and Anger That Is Valid, and I Wasn't Immune From That"
18:38 "I've Always Been a Bit Playful With My Surroundings"
18:45 "Everything I'm Saying at Eight Years Old, I'm Also Still Hearing in My Music at Age 28"
18:58 "There's Still a Playfulness With How I Interact With My Environment and the Sounds I Choose"
19:08 "It Stems From Self-Actualization and Being Able to Interact With Stimuli Like N.E.R.D at Such a Young Age"
19:38 N.E.R.D: "You Think That You Don't Have to Ever Quit"
19:59 "At What Point Did You Start Thinking About Being a Rockstar?"
20:06 "There Was This Huge Tree in the Middle of the Oval. Pretty Sure It Was 200 Years Old"
20:21 "A Reoccurring Dream: Up in the Branches With a Drum Kit, Guitar, and Earpiece Microphone"
20:28 "Playing Drums With My Feet and Guitar With My Hands, a Concert to All the School Kids"
20:40 "A Reoccurring Dream I'd Have for a Few Years"
20:47 "I Never Knew the Exact Answer, but I Knew I Was Gonna Do Some Crazy Shit"
20:59 "I Don't Know What It's Gonna Be, but It's Gonna Be Something Really Fucking Crazy"
21:06 "That Was the First Semblance of Maybe I'll Be a Rock Star"
21:09 "Have You Ever Played a Gig in a Tree?" "Not in a Tree"
21:14 "Well, You Gotta Make That Dream Come True"
21:17 "I've Played a Gig in a Castle, a Prison, an Airfield"
21:25 "That One-Man Band Up a Tree, This Is What I Wanna See"
21:30 "That's Like the Final Form. Full Circle"
21:34 "Can You Remember the First Time You Ever Rapped Over a Beat?"
21:41 "Before I Started Making Music, My Brother Was Already Making Music"
21:45 "He Was in His Rock Era, Then Transitioned to Hip-Hop"
21:57 "Everyone Assumed I'd Follow in My Older Brother's Footsteps, so I Actually Pushed Back"
22:01 "Nah, Fuck That. I'm Gonna Do My Own Thing"
22:10 "I Was Already Writing Short Stories, Then That Transitioned to Poetry"
22:17 "My Brother Saw the Vision. He Was Basically Begging Me to Start Rapping"
22:29 "He Turned Our Family Computer Room Into His Personal Studio"
22:37 "Already Inviting Kids From the Neighborhood to Come and Record. It Was Pretty Much Inescapable"
22:39 "He Gave Me This Shitty Little MP3 Player That Could Hold About 60 Songs"
22:50 "In a Public Bathroom, One of His Beats Came on on Shuffle, and I Started Writing My First Verse"
22:58 "Good Reverb in a Public Toilet"
23:13 "It Became a Track From My Brother and I's First Duo, Known as The Ansah Brothers"
23:33 "That Was the First Verse That I Wrote"
23:37 "What Did Your Parents Make of You Going Into Music, Given They'd Come From Ghana?"
23:50 "Typical Immigrant Parent Reaction: 'You're Supposed to Be a Doctor, Lawyer, or an Engineer'"
24:04 "As the Younger Brother, My Older Brother Took the Brunt of It"
24:13 "It Wasn't Until They Saw Him on Channel V: 'Oh, Maybe This Is a Real Thing'"
24:21 "He Started Getting on Festivals, a Paycheck Came With It"
24:33 "I'm Gonna Be a Rapper Too"
24:38 "Ever Since Then, They've Been Extremely, Extremely Supportive"
24:42 "My Dad to This Day Is Probably Still My Biggest Fan"
24:46 "He Will Still Randomly Send Me Hungarian Articles Where They Mention One of My Songs"
24:53 "I Don't Know How He Finds It"
24:58 "They Must Be So Proud. Barack Obama Put One of Your Songs on His Playlist"
25:03 "Shout Out Obiezy, My Guy"
25:05 "He Sent It to Me. The President Loves My Stuff. My Dad Saw It Before I Did"
25:18 "It's Kind of Just Been My Life for a Long Time. I Started This Very Young"
25:31 "My Parents Are Very Proud"
25:35 Third Song: Lupe Fiasco, 'American Terrorist [Ft. Matthew Santos]'
25:48 "This Was a Huge Record for Lupe. There's a Lot Going on in This Song"
25:53 "Why Did You Choose It?"
25:55 "I'd Figured Out the Puzzle Pieces and Seen Who I Can Be, but What Do I Want to Say?"
26:09 "I Discovered Lupe Through This Shitty Little MP3 Player That My Brother Got Me"
26:18 "What Music Could Be Used For, the Stories It Could Be Used to Tell"
26:25 "Being the Only Black Kid in a Totally White School, I Didn't Know How to Articulate My Experiences"
26:31 "Through Hip Hop, It Was the First Time I Was Hearing Stories That Pertained to Me"
26:46 "The First Time I Had Heard What I Now Know as Politics and What That Actually Meant"
27:18 "How Old Are You When You're Hearing This Song?" "Year Seven. Twelve, Thirteen"
27:26 "A Huge Encapsulation of What Can Be Said and What People Think Can't Be Said Through Hip-Hop"
27:40 "A Political Awakening for Me as Well"
27:46 "The First Time I Could Hear a Point of View Not Co-Signed by Western Imperial Backing"
28:05 "My Gateway Point of Politics and Communication"
28:13 "Now That I Know Music Is a Language, What Do I Want to Say?"
28:27 "I Want to Use It the Same Reason Hip Hop Was Created: as a Loudspeaker"
28:41 "All the Things I'm Experiencing That I Don't Think Other People Are Really Talking About"
28:49 "Year Seven, Then Over a Decade Later: My Most Political Album to Date"
29:15 "The Lineage Is So Apparent"
29:19 "Why Did It Take Until Album Number Three to Be So Directly Political?"
29:32 "I Think My Music Has Been Political From the Start"
29:38 "The First Time I Even Heard the Term Political Was in Early High School"
29:43 "Talking About Some Racism That Had Happened Around Me"
29:48 "'You Don't Need to Make Everything So Political.' I Was Like, 'What Does That Even Mean?'"
29:59 "What Politics Is Is Deeply Intertwined in What Life Is, Especially as a Black Man"
30:13 "The Privileges and Faults We Have Today Don't Exist in a Vacuum. They Exist Because of Something Political"
30:20 "My Music Has Been Political From the Jump. It's Just a Bit Less in Your Face"
30:29 "I Was Still Fusing It With Sci-Fi and Fantasy Elements, the Jet Set Radio"
30:39 "The Veil of Creative Writing That Wanted to Make Everything a Metaphor"
30:49 "At This Day and Age, We Don't Have Time for the Honey and the Dress-Ups. No More Hiding"
30:59 "I Don't Want to Be Misunderstood. This Is What It Is"
31:05 "What's American Terrorist All About?"
31:09 "Subverting Preconceived Notions We in the West Have About What Terrorism Is"
31:24 "Released in the Early 2000s: The Hysteria and Persecution of Middle Eastern People Post 9/11"
31:37 "Lupe Asks: 'What About the Christian Nationalists? What About the KKK?'"
31:56 "You Look at Events on the Other Side of the World and Put Them in This Big Box That Is Terrorism"
32:15 "When It's Time to Look in the Mirror, It Becomes Isolated Incidents"
32:25 "Lupe Kind of Just Shines the Mirror in Front of All of Us"
32:55 Lupe Fiasco: "Don't Give the Black Man Food, Give Red Man Liquor"
32:59 "Something I Always Loved Was How Verbose It Was"
33:06 "There Were Like Puzzle Pieces. You Couldn't Get It All on the First Listen"
33:13 "I Loved the Fact That You Couldn't Get It All in One Go, and You Had to Keep Revisiting It"
33:20 "Every Time You Revisited It, You'd Pick Up More"
33:24 "I Learnt How to Love That Quality in Visual Art and Film"
33:35 "If You Have to Keep Coming Back to It, That's How Art Becomes Timeless"
33:45 "That's How You Give Art New Life"
33:57 "It Made Me Want to Create Timeless Art"
34:01 "Complexity Is Beautiful to You, Right?" "Really Beautiful Because Everything I've Done Has Been a Resistance Against Simplicity"
34:12 "Everything Has Been a Fusion, an Amalgamation"
34:16 "When They Told Me I Either Needed to Be Eddie Murphy or 50 Cent: Everything Was Gonna Be a Fight"
34:31 "Complexity Is Important to Me Because I Am a Fully Formed, Multifaceted Human Being"
34:41 "My Art Is Never Going to Be Clean and Easy to Fit in a Box Because That's Not What Humanity Is"
34:49 "Art Should Just Be the Greatest Expression of Humanity"
34:57 "When I Was Young, Having Those Reoccurring Dreams: How Am I Gonna Do Some Crazy Shit?"
35:08 "What Kind of Person Do I Have to Be to Be Constantly Doing Crazy Shit?"
35:14 "I Have to Be a Lifelong Student and a Fierce Boundary Breaker"
35:22 "I Have to Always Be in the Pursuit of New Ground"
35:29 "That Led Me to My Next Pick"
35:42 Fourth Song: Prince, 'All the Critics Love U in New York'
35:48 "There Are So Many Prince Songs You Could Have Chosen. Why This Song?"
35:55 "I Was Actually Quite Late to Prince. I Came to Prince Through Andre 3000"
35:59 "He's Like the Modern-Day Prince"
36:04 "I Was So Enamored by OutKast, and Specifically Andre"
36:12 "Talking About Boundary Breakers: Weirding People Out With Your Outfits, but Being So Good They're Forced to Accept It"
36:29 "Learning Deeper About Andre, I Learnt That So Much of His Artistry Was a Love Letter to Prince"
36:36 "So Then I Started Delving Into Prince"
36:44 "It Breaks So Many Rules That I'd Been Subconsciously Taught as to What a Song Should Be"
36:55 "Like What? The Length, the Structure, the Way He Inserts Himself as Different Characters"
37:11 "He Becomes Like a Police Officer With a Walkie-Talkie: 'What the Fuck Is He Doing?'"
37:30 "But It Was Still Just So Engaging, and That Was the Doorway to Listening to a Lot More Prince"
37:41 "I Am in a Lineage of Black Weirdo Boundary Breakers, and Prince Is One of the Godfathers"
37:57 "All the Picks to This Point Were Formulating Who I Was as a Person, but Now This Is Deep in Genesis Owusu the Artist"
38:07 "I Am a Person Now Already, but Now It's About the Artistry"
38:14 "This Point in Time Is 2019, Starting the First Album, Smiling With No Teeth"
38:17 "That's When I Actually Got Into Prince"
38:21 "My Reoccurring Thought Whenever I Got Stuck: 'What Would Prince Do?'"
38:36 "What Would Prince Do if He Was a Rapper From Canberra in the 2020s?"
38:45 "That Is How Smiling With No Teeth Was Created"
38:49 "Freak Everyone Out in the Best of Ways"
39:00 "Did That Help Having Prince as Your North Star When You Felt Stuck or Scared?"
39:10 "It Was a Point of Guidance in a Field That Isn't Densely Populated"
39:19 "There Aren't a Lot of People to Look to When You're Trying to Make Extremely Boundary-Breaking Art"
39:33 "But There Is a Person Who Did This in Music, Fashion, Visuals, and How He Presented Himself"
39:46 "When I'm Lost, I Have a North Star"
39:49 "He Was Such a Singular Artist... Completely Individual, Always Did Things His Own Way, but He Still Made Hits"
40:04 "He Made a Lot of Music. He Never Stopped"
40:09 "That Sense of Confidence and Self-Belief Seems to Have Driven Him the Whole Way, Which I See in You"
40:17 "I Remember When We Were Making That Album, There Was an Unspoken Feeling: 'This Can Go Absolutely Nowhere'"
40:30 "In My Experience, I'd Never Heard an Album Like Smiling With No Teeth Go Very Far"
40:47 "Regardless of That, Because There Was This Self-Confidence of Knowing Why I Do What I Do"
41:00 "We're Doing This Because I Think This Is Cool as Fuck"
41:10 "This Fulfills the Mission I Gave Myself at 10 Years Old to Be a Lifelong Student and Boundary Breaker"
41:27 "How Does It Feel That the Album You Give No Fucks About Then Goes on to Win All the Awards?"
41:48 "Every Major Music Award in Australia, Including the ARIA for Album of the Year. How Did That Feel?"
42:05 "It Was Pretty Crazy. I'd Never Seen Anything Like That Album Do That Before"
42:10 "I'd Never Even Really Seen People Like Me Represented in the Australian Music Landscape in Such a Vast Way"
42:29 "What I Was Really Thinking About Was: 'Oh, Our Community Is Changing.' That Was Really Cool"
42:47 "These Things People Wouldn't Have Given Two Glances at 10 Years Ago Are Now Accepted and Really Cool"
43:02 "It Was Like a Battle Had Been Won, Because So Much of My Life Was Battling Against Obstacles From Not Being Accepted"
43:28 "I'd Climbed to the Top of That Mountain Despite All the Years of Obstacles"
43:55 "When You Get That Acceptance, but Also With It Comes Expectation, What Does That Mean for Your Creative Brain?"
44:03 "It Was Really Weird Going Into the Second Album, Having All These New Eyes and New Voices"
44:21 "Other Voices Being Like, 'Now That You've Done This, You Gotta Do This and You Gotta Do This'"
44:35 "The Thing of Letting People Down or Making People Disappointed"
44:47 "I Had to Remind Myself Why I've Gotten to This Point: Just Doing What I Wanna Do"
45:00 "Doing What Feels Right and Expressing What Is Innate and Authentic to Myself. That Is Why I'm Here"
45:14 "By This Stage, Is the Question, What Would Kofi Do?" "I Guess So"
45:21 "Making the Third Album, I Didn't Really Have to Ask, What Would Prince Do? I Just Did It"
46:11 "Can You Tell Me About Your Side Quests?"
46:19 "Being a Lifelong Student Doesn't Start and End at Music. It's the Point of Life"
46:36 "Going Back to the Video Games: Leveling Up Your Character"
46:47 "When I Set Out to Be a Boundary Breaker, That Wasn't Simply in Art, That Was in Life"
46:55 "I Put Up an Instagram Story: 'Does Anyone Have Any Skills They'd Wanna Teach Me? Doesn't Matter Where You Are'"
47:10 "I've Got a Lot of Stuff Teed Up. Chain Mail Making"
47:15 "I've Done Two So Far: Tarot and Astrology"
47:21 "Please Do Me a Reading Later On"
47:25 "I've Booked Someone to Teach Me How to Tattoo"
47:35 "Tattooing, Cattle Herding, Sheep Shearing, Pole Dancing, Irish Dancing, Professional Wrestling, Navigation via the Sun"
47:55 "Genesis Owusu the Musician Is Not the End All Be All of Kofi Boateng Owusu Ansah"
48:10 "There's Still So Much to Learn, So Much to Be, and That's the Point of the Side Quest"
48:16 "Does That Ground You as Well When the Noise and the Fever of Music Is Going Really Well?"
48:30 "No Matter How Successful You Are, There's a Whole Palette in Front of You That Makes You Who You Are"
48:40 "The Success in Music Has Given Me the Privilege of a Lifestyle Where I Have the Time and Access"
49:00 "I'm Grateful and Blessed, but It Doesn't Mean It Has to Stop There"
49:07 "My Parents Never Would've Expected I'd Be an ARIA-Winning Musician Going to Learn Pole Dancing in Port Macquarie"
49:20 "What a Sentence"
49:23 "I'm Living Worlds That My Ancestors Couldn't Fathom"
49:31 "I Now Have the Ability to Do This, so Why Would I Not Take That Up?"
49:40 Final Song: Tyler, The Creator, 'I Think'
49:54 "There Is a Lineage of Not Only Musicians, but World Builders"
50:07 "Tyler Is a Hallmark of This Lineage"
50:11 "It's Not Just About the Music, but the Music Is the Soundtrack to This Whole Thing"
50:17 "The Music Is the Soundtrack to the Video, Which Is the Reason for the Clothing That Shows the Logos of the Slogans"
50:31 "It's a Whole World Going on That Artists That Inspire Me Have Created, and Now I Get to Create"
50:43 "That's Why I Love Igor Specifically: The Tightest of His Expressions, the Character Bordering on Absurdity"
50:52 "It Goes Back to Andre 3000. It's So Strange, but You Just Can't Deny It Because It's Still So Good"
51:22 "The Song Features Beautiful Vocals From Solange, Another Huge Inspiration to Me"
51:32 "Solange Is an Artist That Doesn't Get the Credit She Deserves for Foundationally Changing How People Make Music Videos"
51:45 "Solange's Music Videos for A Seat at the Table Literally Changed the Game"
51:56 "From 2016 Until Now, I've Seen the Stark Difference in How People Make Music Videos"
52:06 "A Whole Family of People Who Have Created a World From the Privilege of Being Successful in Music"
52:27 "The Concept of This Record Was About a Doomed Relationship"
52:30 "Tyler, The Creator's Releasing This in 2019, in an Age Where People Aren't Accessing Music in Album Forms"
52:37 "It's Really Hard to Get Younger Listeners to Listen to a Full Record"
52:42 "Why Is the Album Important to You in the Way That You Tell Your Story?"
52:46 "Particularly Now in 2026"
52:52 "As a Music Lover, That's How I Learnt to Digest Music, Through the Album Format"
53:04 "When It Comes to the Beauty of Complexity, but Also My History as a Storyteller, I Just Need Some Space"
53:11 "I Need Some Breadth to Get the Nuances and Intricacies, and You Can't Do That in a Three-Minute Single"
53:24 "You Need the Space to Create a World, and the Album Gives You That"
53:30 "The Album Is What Makes Genesis Owusu Genesis Owusu: I Don't Have the Space to Go From Indie to Punk to Hip Hop to Folk in One Song"
53:45 "The Reason I Am Appreciated Is Because of the Breadth That the Album Format Has Given Me"
53:56 "What Is It That You Love About Crawling Into a Story in a Record?"
54:04 "My First Instance of Writing Was Writing Stories. It's Just as Simple as I Love Stories"
54:17 "I Love Being Able to Be Placed in a World That Maybe I Can't Physically Be in"
54:24 "I've Loved Stories in Every Medium: Written Form, Film, and Now Music"
54:36 "As I Jump Around Not Only Genres but Mediums, I've Realized It's All Just a Different Type of Pen for Me"
54:47 "It's All Just a Different Way to Continue What I Loved Doing When I Was Five: Telling Stories"
54:56 "Through Everything You've Made, There's a Constant Flow, a Constant Progression. Do You Fear Becoming Stagnant?"
55:01 "Yeah. It's My Absolute Biggest Fear"
55:06 "Where Do You Think That Comes From?"
55:08 "It Would Be a Waste of the Talents I've Procured and a Betrayal of That 10-Year-Old Who Gave Me That Mission"
55:28 "I Just Can't Do That to Myself"
55:30 "What Do You Think That 10-Year-Old Would Think Looking at You Right Now, 18 Years Later?"
55:33 "He'd Be Happy. 'Yo, This Guy Is Sick. This Guy Is Crazy. I'll Buy His Records.'"
55:42 "This Is the Crazy Shit. I'm Doing It"
55:45 "And Then if I Were to Be Stagnant, He'd Think This Guy's a Loser"
55:54 "'You've Got It All, and Then What? You're Just Deciding to Regurgitate What Worked a Million Times?'"
56:03 "It Was Never About What People Thought Back When They Hated It. So Now I Have to Be Brave Enough to Make Sure It's Not About What People Think Now That They Like It"
56:15 "It Just Has to Be What Is Authentic, Innate, New, Fresh, Bold. That's What It's Always Been About"
56:27 "The Voices That Come and Go Throughout That Journey Just Have to Stay as Wispy Voices, Can Never Disrupt the Stream"
56:38 "You're 28. You've Still Got So Long to Go. What Kind of Artist Do You Wanna Be?"
56:44 "We've Been Celebrating the Boundary Pushes, the People Who Refuse to Be Squeezed Into One Box Over Five Incredible Songs"
56:52 "As You Move Forward Into the Next Decades of Your Life, What Kind of Artist Do You Wanna Be?"
57:00 "In This Most Ironic Way, Exactly Who I've Been: A Person Who Continues to Strive for Newness, Fresh Experience"
57:17 "A Person Who Stayed True to 10-Year-Old Kofi's Mission. That Is Who I Have to Be Until I'm in the Dirt"
57:30 "I'm Excited to Be Witness to Your Continuing Evolution. Genesis Owusu, Thank You So Much for Taking Five"
57:35 "Appreciate It. Thanks for Having Me"
57:55 Zan's Wrap-Up: "Genesis Owusu, What a Legend. One of Those Artists I'll Continue to Get Inspired By"
58:08 "Speaking of Great Australian Artists, This Week We Announced Some Very Special Live Take 5 Events"
58:13 "As a Part of Oz Music Month, Visiting a Handful of Record Stores"
58:17 "The Presets, Dan Sultan, Kate Miller-Heidke, and John Butler to Take 5 in Front of a Live Audience"
58:27 "You'll All Get to Hear Them Through November Here on the Podcast"
58:33 "Head to the Double J Website Quick Sticks for All the Details. I'll Pop a Link in the Show Notes"
58:40 "It's Been a Huge Season of Take 5 on ABC TV and Here Stretching Out on the Podcast"
58:47 "We're Gonna Wrap It Up Next Week With Some National Treasures"
58:57 "That Was Our Pact With Mom Actually. 'Don't Get the Tattoo. Don't Take Drugs.' And So We Didn't"
59:12 Vika and Linda Bull: "A Beautiful Conversation About Identity, Harmony, and Finding Your Voice"
This episode was filmed for Season 5 of Take 5 with Zan Rowe on ABC TV and ABC iview. You can stream the whole season on ABC iview now.
Watch this episode of Take 5 on ABC iview 
https://iview.abc.net.au/show/take-5-with-zan-roweTake 5: live in record stores
This November, we're heading into record stores with some very special guests - and we want you to come along.
Zan Rowe will visit four record stores in New South Wales and Victoria to record rare, intimate live episodes of the Take 5 podcast, which celebrates 20 years in 2026.
She's pulled out the Rolodex for this one, convincing Aussie legends The Presets, Dan Sultan, Kate Miller-Heidke, and her old mate John Butler to come along for the ride.
Find out all the details here.

Lainey Wilson is a force of nature.
Raised in the tiny farming town of Baskin, Louisiana (population 170) she grew up between corn fields and country radio, where music wasn't a genre but a way of life. From writing her first song at nine years old to hauling a camper trailer to Nashville at 19, her path to becoming one of country music's biggest stars was anything but overnight. It took a decade of hustle, a Hannah Montana wig, and an unshakable belief that if she could just get one opportunity, she could do the rest.
Now she's selling out arenas across the world, winning back-to-back CMA Entertainer of the Year awards, starring in Yellowstone, and counting Dolly Parton as a friend who called her "sister." Through it all, her southern charm and small-town values remain her compass; ride horses, sit on the front porch with your dogs, and never forget who you are.
This episode was filmed for Season 5 of Take 5 with Zan Rowe. Lainey was warm, funny, and generous in sharing her extraordinary journey across five songs. The theme that emerged was clear: staying grounded is a choice you make every day, and being yourself is the bravest thing you can do.
Lainey Wilson's song choices: 
Mel McDaniel - 'Louisiana Saturday Night'
Lee Ann Womack - 'I Hope You Dance'
CCR - 'Lookin' Out My Back Door'
Brothers Osborne - 'I'm Not For Everyone'
Tim McGraw - 'Humble and Kind'
00:00 Introduction: "If Dolly Parton Believes in Me, Then I'm Fine"
00:24 From Yellowstone to CMA Entertainer of the Year: "Cowgirl of the Night"
00:52 "If You Tell All Your Business, You Ain't Got None": Lainey's Daddy's Wisdom
01:06 Filming Take 5: Songs That Keep Her Grounded
01:26 Growing Up in Baskin: Music as a Lifeline to the Outside World
01:48 "I Wanna Make People Feel That Way": The Power of a Three-and-a-Half Minute Song
01:55 Where Did Your Passion Come From? Daddy's Guitar, Mama Singing in Church
02:22 "Country Wasn't a Genre, It Was a Way of Life"
02:44 First Song: Mel McDaniel, 'Louisiana Saturday Night'
03:06 Baskin, Louisiana: Population 170
03:30 "You're Either Helping Your Daddy in the Field or Sitting Around a Table Telling Stories"
03:47 Farming and Music: "A Storm Could Roll Through and Wipe It All Away"
04:17 Sowing Seeds With Faith: Farming as Metaphor for a Music Career
04:33 "My Brother Bill and My Other Brother Jack": Feeling Like They Were Singing Your Story
04:54 "Redneck People Say Things Kind of in a Backwards Way"
05:15 The Beauty of the Everyday: A One-Eyed Dog and a Single-Shot Rifle
05:33 The People of Baskin: "I Will Give You the Shirt Off My Back"
05:50 Moving to Nashville: Finding Your Village of People
06:11 A Louisiana Saturday Night: Drive-Through Daiquiris and Backyard Bonfires
06:55 "As Long as You Don't Poke the Straw Into the Cup"
07:18 "Dance in the Kitchen Till the Morning Light"
07:47 Did You Know You Had Talent? "I Knew I Needed to Believe It"
08:18 Writing Songs at a Sleepover and Singing A Cappella to Mama
08:35 Mama as Sounding Board: Songs in the Bathroom at 11 Years Old
08:52 "I Had to Believe It First, Then the People Around Me Started Believing"
09:24 Nine Years Old in Nashville: "This Feels Like Home"
09:42 "I Just Knew It": A Calling Discovered on the Interstate
10:04 Writing About Tequila and Cigarettes at Nine
10:18 Finding Her Own Voice: "The Songwriting World Was Getting Bigger"
10:37 "Every Song I Write, I'm Finding More of My Voice": 5,000 Songs and Counting
10:55 Songwriting as Therapy: "Let Me Dump This on You"
11:05 Learning About the World Through Other People's Shoes
11:26 First Performance: Kindergarten Graduation Dressed as a Butterfly
12:09 The Cherry Incident: "I Spit It Into My Granny's Hands"
12:27 "I Should've Known This Was Gonna Be a Shitshow"
12:43 The Hannah Montana Impersonator: Five Years of Birthday Parties
13:04 "This Is My Moment": Volunteering in Eighth Grade
13:29 "It Spread Like Wildfire": Touring Louisiana, Mississippi, Arkansas, Texas
13:49 Opening as Lainey Wilson Before Becoming Hannah Montana
14:06 "Ain't Nobody Else Gonna Go Get It for You"
14:23 Changing Behind Trees: "You Just Do What You Gotta Do"
14:39 Second Song: Lee Ann Womack, 'I Hope You Dance'
14:59 Sixth Grade: The Teacher Walked in With a Boombox
15:18 "For the First Time in My Life, a Song Hit Me Different"
15:27 "Lee Ann Womack Made Me Feel Like I Could Do Anything"
15:49 Watching the Music Video on CMT and Dreaming
16:13 "I Hope You Still Feel Small": An Anthem for Throwing Your Hat in the Ring
16:26 "Go Stand Beside an Ocean and Remember There's a Much Bigger Plan"
16:56 Keeping Your Feet Planted on the Ground
17:23 "Give Faith a Fighting Chance": Using Your Gift for Good
17:54 Self-Belief and Drive From a Young Age
18:13 "My Family Always Encouraged Me to Be Nothing But Myself"
18:38 Finding People Who Weren't Trying to Change Her
19:00 Nashville Is a 10-Year Town — and It Was Spot On
19:23 Dolly Parton, Reba, and the '90s Ladies: "They Held Onto What Made Them Them"
19:54 What Were You Doing in Those 10 Years?
20:13 19 Years Old, 2011: A Camper Trailer Hauled to Nashville
20:46 Jerry Cupit: Parking the Camper for Free and Learning to Write Songs
21:07 "If You're Writing About a Blue Truck, How Does That Truck Make You Feel?"
21:24 My Grandfather's Favor: What He Did for Jerry Ended Up Helping Me
21:51 "Should've Packed It Up and Got the Hell Out of Dodge": Never Giving Up
22:13 Year Seven Publishing Deal, Year Eight Record Deal: "Now the Hard Work Started"
22:33 "I'd Been Preparing for the Race, and Then I Finally Entered It"
22:55 Keeping the Faith: "That Weird Sense of Peace I Got as a Nine-Year-Old"
23:19 "We Got One Life, and I Wanted to Be Happy Doing What I Love"
23:19 Heart Like a Truck: The Breakthrough Single
23:42 Paying It Forward: "I Want the Little Girls and Boys to Know This Was Not Overnight"
24:03 "Things Might Not Happen When You Want Them To, But They're Gonna Happen How They're Supposed To"
24:42 Cowgirl of the Night: "I Will Probably Still Be Crowning Somebody at 80 Years Old"
25:03 "I Am Beautiful. I Am Talented."
25:15 Scanning the Crowd: "What You Say to Yourself Is Very Important"
25:39 "Practice What I Preach": Telling Little Girls They're Smart and Beautiful
25:59 Third Song: CCR, 'Looking Out My Back Door'
26:10 Meeting John Fogerty: "You Won't Believe Who I Sat By Tonight"
26:32 The One CD in Daddy's Truck: "If He Was Tapping His Boot, He Liked It"
26:53 Kinetic Energy and Coming Home: "He's Talking About Locking the Front Door"
27:07 Writing About Home When You're Not at Home: "We All Wanna Feel Like We're There"
27:24 "It's Just About Perspective": Seeing the World From That Point of View
27:52 "I Was in the Backseat Playing Air Guitar": CCR Seeping Into Her System
28:11 "A Good Time, Not a Long Time": Credence and Hippie Culture
28:32 Bell-Bottoms and Free Love: "I Would Always Wanna Be a Hippie for Halloween"
28:51 "People Coming Up to My Mama Saying Lainey Gives Off a Free Spirit"
29:09 "I Just Have Always Felt a Little Free-Spirited"
29:29 "Giants Doing Cartwheels": The Wildness Beyond the Window
30:13 Yellowstone, Grammys, and CMA Entertainer of the Year: "Since Taylor Swift"
30:31 Coming Home to Nashville: "Is Your Mind Still Racing?"
30:49 "My Mind Is Always Racing": ADHD and the Song 'Can't Sit Still'
31:14 Getting Centered: Riding Horses and Sitting on the Front Porch
31:40 "Doing All the Simple Things Is What Helps Me Get There"
32:00 "I Can Be the Best Version of the Artist That People Have Connected To"
32:10 The First Thing She Does After Tour: Snuggling French Bulldog Hippie Mae Wilson
32:19 Architectural Digest and the Bedroom Sanctuary: "You Gotta Unplug Every Now and Then"
32:41 "You Can't Keep Pouring Out From a Half-Empty Cup for Very Long"
33:00 Fourth Song: Brothers Osborne, 'I'm Not For Everyone'
33:24 Shared Producer Jay Joyce: Eric Church and Brothers Osborne Records
34:00 "The Music Was Telling a Story of Its Own While the Lyrics Were Telling Another"
34:16 "You Could Pay Attention to Either One": Parallel Lines and ADHD
34:32 Jay Joyce: "He Can Stir Stuff Up in a Little Pot and Breathe Life Into It"
34:57 "Leaning Into the Things That Make You You"
35:18 "People That Love Ya, Like Ya, Don't Give a Damn, and Hate Ya"
35:37 "I'm Not for Everyone": Not an F You — "That's Okay"
35:53 Social Media: "You Aren't What You Do"
36:14 "I Am a Singer, I Am a Songwriter" — But What If This Is Taken Away Tomorrow?
36:30 Identity and the Dream: "How Much of Lainey Wilson Is There in Lainey Wilson?"
36:48 "Save a Little Bit Over Here for Myself"
37:11 Daddy's Saying Revisited: "If You Tell All Your Business, You Ain't Got None"
37:32 "That's How I'm Gonna Wind Up on the Prayer List Back Home"
37:52 TJ Coming Out as Gay: "Is Country Becoming More Welcoming?"
38:18 "We Don't Have to Live the Same Life to Love Each Other"
38:44 Big Tent Country: "Everyone's Welcome in the Big Tent"
39:05 Being a Unifying Voice in a Divided World
39:23 "Damned if You Do, Damned if You Don't": Actions Speak Louder Than Words
39:39 "I'm Like Scotch and Savin' Gold Bands"
40:01 Joyful and Uplifting Shows: "Country Can Be Sad, But Your Shows Are Really Happy"
40:21 "Manifest It. Fake It Till You Make It in the Best of Ways"
40:37 "Country Is Cool Again": The Netflix Documentary
40:55 Why Country Is Having a Big Moment: "I Don't Know Anybody Who Doesn't Love a Good Story"
41:41 "It Takes You Home. It Feels Family-Oriented."
42:01 Fifth and Final Song: Tim McGraw, 'Humble and Kind'
42:25 Written by Lori McKenna: Tim McGraw Grew Up Right Down the Road
42:53 "My Step-Grandmother Used to Babysit Him"
43:10 Tim Bringing Shows to Northeast Louisiana: "If He Did It, Maybe I Could Too"
43:35 "Hold the Door, Say Please, Say Thank You": A Blueprint for Staying Grounded
44:04 "Words to Live By": Lori McKenna Wrote It to Her Children
44:10 "I Haven't Met Him Just Yet": Sharing Headphones With Her Sister
44:28 "We'd Fight Over Them": Dance Routines on the Gravel Driveway
44:47 Hometown Hero: "This Guy Is From Here and He Did It"
45:09 Writing a Letter to Tim McGraw at 18: "All I Need Is an Opportunity"
45:26 "Maybe He Read It and Was Scared of the Power of Lainey"
45:45 Drawing the Line: Humble and Kind and Things a Man Ought to Know
46:09 "Country Music Raised Me": Reba, Vince Gill, and Tim McGraw
46:27 Writing About What Mom and Daddy Taught Her: "What's Right Is Right"
46:51 What Would Dolly Do?
47:07 Mama Meeting Dolly: "You're Like My Sister"
47:27 "Do You Have a Good Manager? Well, Is He an Asshole?"
47:48 Singing With Dolly: "Terrifying, Especially When She's Watching You"
48:06 "If Dolly Parton Believes in Me, Then I'm Fine"
48:31 What Would Little Lainey Think? "She'd Be Very Proud"
48:49 "I Didn't Know I'd Be in Australia Playing Double Arena Shows"
49:13 New Album, New Adventure: "Showing a Different Side and Pushing the Boundaries"
49:36 "You've Remained Incredibly Humble and Kind"
49:54 "This Is Not About Me": Lainey and Zan's Thank You
50:10 "Hold the Door, Say Please, Say Thank You"
50:51 Zan's Wrap-Up: "I Could Listen to Her Speak All Day Long"
51:11 Watch Take 5 With Shania Twain on ABC iview
51:22 Next Time: Genesis Owusu
51:58 From Ghana to Canberra: "We Don't Have Time for the Honey and the Dress-Ups"
52:21 Season 5 of Take 5 With Zan Rowe. Stream on ABC iview
This episode was filmed for Season 5 of Take 5 with Zan Rowe on ABC TV and ABC iview. You can stream the whole season on ABC iview now.
Watch this episode of Take 5 on ABC iview 
https://iview.abc.net.au/show/take-5-with-zan-rowe

Jacinda Ardern is a history-maker.
As Prime Minister of New Zealand at 37, she became only the second woman in the world to give birth while in office. But it was her leadership style that defined her time at the top, leading with empathy and kindness in the face of back-to-back tragedies, and showing the strength of coming together.
From growing up in small-town New Zealand singing country and western duets with her sister at the local community hall, to raging to Smashing Pumpkins in her first car with a discman plugged into the cassette deck, Ardern's musical taste has always been eclectic and deeply personal. She's the teenager who loved alternative music and heavy metal while being a dedicated student rep raised in the Mormon faith, and the world leader who chose a drum and bass track as her walk-on song.
Her career path was never straightforward. She ran from the possibility of becoming a politician, buying a one-way ticket to New York to escape the suggestion she should run for office. But a sense of responsibility (what she calls her "oversized sense of duty"), kept pulling her back. In 2017, everything changed in a single year: a by-election, deputy leadership, then the top job itself, all while secretly pregnant. She led her country through the Christchurch mosque shootings, the Whakaari White Island eruption, and a global pandemic, all while insisting that being human is not a weakness.
This episode was filmed for Season 5 of Take 5 with Zan Rowe at the Australian Chamber Orchestra's studios on Sydney Harbour. Jacinda caught the ferry to the location, rolling up without any entourage, proving just how down-to-earth she is. She was candid, emotional, and generous in exploring her extraordinary life across five songs. The theme that emerged was clear: optimism as a courageous act, and the enduring power of being useful.
Jacinda Ardern's song choices: 
Smashing Pumpkins - 'Bullet With Butterfly Wings'
Fat Freddy's Drop - 'Wandering Eye'
Cat Stevens - 'Peace Train'
The Mountain Goats - 'This Year'
Shapeshifter - 'Stars'
00:00 Introduction: Jacinda Ardern Made History
00:54 "They Are Us": Leading with Empathy and Kindness
01:04 Filming Take 5 with a Former PM
01:56 Extended Podcast Edit: The Most Eclectic Song List of the Season
02:02 Childhood in Rural New Zealand: The Record Player at Home
02:26 Roy Orbison, ABBA, and Parents' "Slightly Different Era" Taste
03:02 The Country and Western Club: Every Friday Night at the Community Hall
03:26 Singing Duets with Sister Louise: "She's the One Holding the Microphone"
04:03 "Don't It Make My Brown Eyes Blue" and the Christmas Special
04:58 Sister's Pop vs. Her Alternative: Cypress Hill, Rage Against the Machine
05:11 Smashing Pumpkins: 'Bullet With Butterfly Wings'
05:53 Growing Up in Morrinsville: Dairy Farms and $20 a Week at the Fish and Chip Shop
06:02 The Discman in the Car: Cassette Adapters and Judder Bars
06:39 The Multi-Change CD Player: "The Most Exciting Thing"
07:02 The Walkman and Sister Louise: "I've Never Gotten Over It"
07:44 Playing Every CD to Death: "You Valued Every One"
08:01 Teenage Angst: Rage Against the Machine, Metallica, Pantera, Nine Inch Nails
08:21 Smashing Pumpkins: "Both the Lyrics That Spoke to Teenage Angst and Great Music"
08:52 Melon Collie and the Infinite Sadness: A Double Album for the Multi-CD Player
09:15 "Despite All My Rage, I'm Still Just a Rat in a Cage"
09:29 An Earnest Teenager: Raised in Religion, Student Rep, Working Hard
10:13 Not a Headbanger: "My Mother Would've Taken Me to a Chiropractor"
10:44 Parents Respected Their Own Musical Taste and Belief Systems
11:26 Born in Hamilton, Then Murupara: First Observations of Poverty and Inequality
12:00 "A Place That Made Me Quite Political"
12:29 Writing the Book: How Do You End Up in Politics?
12:48 "All of It Contributes to How You Come to Be the Person You Are"
13:15 The Kinship Between Australia and New Zealand
13:44 Empathy and Awareness: Seeing What Affects People
14:17 Father the Policeman: "Power as a Responsibility"
14:40 "Being Useful Is a Driving Force"
15:04 Fat Freddy's Drop: 'Wandering Eye'
15:13 Moving to Wellington in the Early 2000s
15:46 Sworn In as PM: Fat Freddy's Drop Playing on Parliament Steps
16:08 Carpooling on a Bus Instead of Crown Cars
16:33 "Sitting at the Base of the Steps, Just Playing for Us"
17:00 A Full Circle Moment: Unexpected PM, Secretly Pregnant
18:29 First Job in Parliament: Interning in Wellington
18:57 "I Couldn't Possibly Be a Politician"
19:36 People Identifying the Leader in Her Before She Did
20:22 The Beehive: Flatting and a Normal Life in Her 20s
21:06 Still a Practicing Mormon in Her Early 20s
21:25 Cognitive Dissonance: Progressive Politics and the Church
21:50 Campaigning for Equality on Saturday, Church on Sunday
22:02 Leaving the Church: "Something Had to Give"
23:08 Running from Politics: A One-Way Ticket to New York
23:36 London, Then Coming Back to New Zealand
23:55 "Two Dueling Wolves": Imposter Syndrome vs. Responsibility
24:18 Putting Herself Forward: "Turns Out I Was Wrong"
24:42 2017: Everything Happened in One Year
24:47 By-Election, Deputy Leader, Then Leader Nominated
25:28 Waiting for Winston Peters: Finding Out on the 6pm News
25:39 Secretly Pregnant During Coalition Negotiations
27:27 Malcolm Turnbull Calling to Congratulate
27:49 Cat Stevens: 'Peace Train'
28:11 Mrs. Bean's Class: Bursting Into Tears as a Child
28:55 Yusuf Islam Coming to New Zealand After the March 15 Terror Attack
29:30 Peace Train at the Memorial Service: "A Song of Hope in Hard Times"
30:00 Feeling the Same Way as a Child and as an Adult
31:18 Has Hope Always Led You Through Your Life?
31:35 Ernest Shackleton: "Optimism Is True Moral Courage"
32:10 Actively Choosing to Be an Optimistic Person
33:13 The Christchurch Mosque Shootings: Finding Out in Bits
34:01 Frustration and Anger: "A Manifesto of Hate"
34:47 "Simply a Human Response": Why Emotion Isn't Weakness
35:56 Learning from the Muslim Community: "They Opened Their Arms"
37:25 "A Sadness I'll Carry for the Rest of My Life"
37:42 Processing Grief: "I'll Never Set That Down"
38:21 The Mountain Goats: 'This Year'
38:39 The Song of the Year Tradition
39:18 "I Am Gonna Make It Through This Year If It Kills Me"
40:09 Keeping the Faith in Opposition: Purpose and Team Cohesion
41:19 Christchurch, Whakaari, COVID: "It Was Relentless"
42:52 Car Time Was Solo Time: Losing That as Prime Minister
44:04 Elton John's "Still Standing" and the Earthquake on Live TV
44:56 "The Universe Has to Let Up at Some Point"
45:02 Knowing It Was Time to Go
45:43 "Nothing Left in the Tank"
46:03 Not "Spending More Time With Family": The Language of Leaving
46:54 "I Am Human. Politicians Are Human."
47:33 The Emotional Announcement: "Got the Words Out in the End"
47:36 That Night After Stepping Down
48:11 Eventually Feeling Free: "It Takes a While"
49:04 "You Can Be in Politics and Also Be Kind"
49:10 Shapeshifter: 'Stars'
49:33 Drum and Bass Walk-On Song at the Labour Party Conference
50:46 Bonding with Clarke Over Shapeshifter
51:17 Seeing Shapeshifter During COVID New Year's: Joy and Responsibility
52:06 The Coffee Date with Clarke: Surprising Each Other
53:17 The Prime Minister Documentary: "We're Very Normal People"
54:55 Adapting the Memoir for Young Adults
56:10 "15-Year-Old Jacinda Would Be Very Surprised. But I Think She'd Be Proud."
56:24 Life in Sydney: Climate Change, AI Safety, and Empathetic Leadership
57:32 Making a Playlist for Her Niece: "I'm Absolutely Stuck in the 1990s"
57:37 Thank You and Goodbye
58:29 Zan's Wrap-Up: The Only World Leader with Drum and Bass as a Walk-On Song
58:44 Filmed at the ACO Studios on Sydney Harbour
59:10 Next Time: Lainey Wilson
59:55 Season 5 of Take 5 with Zan Rowe. Stream on ABC iview
This episode was filmed for Season 5 of Take 5 with Zan Rowe on ABC TV and ABC iview. You can stream the whole season on ABC iview now.
Watch this episode of Take 5 on ABC iview
https://iview.abc.net.au/show/take-5-with-zan-rowe

David Byrne is a music icon.
With Talking Heads, or his many wild collaborations, and as an acclaimed solo artist, he's continually pushed the boundaries of sound, crafting some of the most iconic live performances of our time.
Over five decades, he's never stopped asking why. His curiosity has driven an extraordinary creative life that stretches way beyond music: on canvas, in writing, filmmaking, composing musicals. He's even designed bike racks.
From hearing Bob Dylan's mysterious words on a tiny radio and discovering James Brown's interlocking grooves, to forming Talking Heads at the Rhode Island School of Design and moving to New York's CBGB scene, Byrne has always followed his curiosity wherever it leads. He wrote his very first song, "Psycho Killer," as a test to see if he could write one at all, and it became an instant classic.
His collaborations read like a who's who of music history: Brian Eno, Arthur Russell, Parliament-Funkadelic, and even Celia Cruz. His 1984 concert film Stop Making Sense with Jonathan Demme remains one of the most celebrated live performances ever captured. And decades later, he's still rearranging his classic songs, finding new meaning in them, sometimes discovering, as with "Life During Wartime," that they feel more real and more close than ever.
This episode was filmed for Season 5 of Take 5 with Zan Rowe in a recording studio in Sydney while David Byrne was in Australia touring over the 2025/26 summer. He was jubilant, fascinating, and so generous in exploring his huge life across five songs. As a lifelong DB fan, the theme was clear: curiosity. And as David himself says, the answers don't come in the songs. They come in the live shows, in how we perform and how we are with one another.
David Byrne's song choices:
James Brown - 'Get On the Good Foot'
Joubert Singers - 'Stand On The Word' (Larry Levan mix)
Celia Cruz - 'Cucala'
James Blake - 'The Wilhelm Scream'
Caetano Veloso - 'Tropicalia'
00:00 Introduction: A Lifetime of Asking Questions
02:01 Meet David Byrne: Icon, Collaborator, Polymath
02:33 Extended Cut. Watch on ABC iview
02:55 The Theme: Curiosity and the Songs That Spark It
03:25 A Tiny Radio, The Byrds, and the Mysterious Words of Bob Dylan
04:45 James Brown: 'Get On the Good Foot'
05:09 Interlocking Puzzles: "I Treat Every Instrument as a Percussion Instrument"
05:34 The Social Metaphor of Funk. A Penny Drop Moment Decades Later
07:12 First Time Seeing James Brown Live: The Dancing Women Who Weren't Singing
08:37 Art School and Music as a Hobby: "Don't Get Your Hopes Up"
09:23 Rhode Island School of Design: Meeting Chris Frantz
09:52 Putting a Band Together and Writing the First Songs
10:39 Why Write Songs at All? "Just to See If You Could"
11:04 Writing "Psycho Killer" as a Test. And People Liked It
11:31 "Check That Box. I Can Write a Song."
12:12 Influences: James Brown, Disco, Bowie, and the Velvet Underground
12:54 Moving to New York: CBGB, Television, and Patti Smith
13:47 MTV and "Once in a Lifetime": Going Back to Art School for Music Videos
14:26 Joubert Singers: 'Stand On The Word' (Larry Levan mix)
14:53 Gospel in a Disco Club: The Shared Transcendence of Dance and Church
16:31 Hearing Talking Heads in the Clubs: "We've Been Validated"
17:11 My Life in the Bush of Ghosts: When the DJ Picked It
18:00 Losing Yourself: The Body Perceives Music Before the Mind
19:25 Trust and Surrender on the Dance Floor
20:01 Celia Cruz: 'Cucala'
20:41 The Latin Club Down the Street from CBGB
21:06 Dance Music Played Live: Salsa, Hips, and Sensuous Rhythms
21:56 Celia Cruz's Voice: "It Cuts Through Everything"
22:36 A Pinch-Yourself Moment: Recording a Song with Celia Cruz
23:12 Different Worlds: Spangly Outfits, Huge Hairdos, and Skinny Jeans
23:50 Collaborators Expanding: Arthur Russell's Cello Arrangement of "Psycho Killer"
24:44 Adding Parliament-Funkadelic Members: The Universe Keeps Growing
25:23 James Blake: 'The Wilhelm Scream'
26:03 Minimalism: "You Don't Have to Keep Piling Everything On"
26:51 Brian Eno vs. James Blake: Learning to Strip Things Down from a Song
27:18 Seeing James Blake Live and Discovering He's "a Great Singer"
27:43 James Blake the Producer: Pulling Things Apart and Stitching Them Back Together
27:58 Stop Making Sense: Showing the Audience How the Sausage Is Made
28:20 "You're Playing to Tracks, Aren't You?" Proving It's All Live
28:45 Breaking a Song Apart Onstage: One Instrument at a Time
29:09 Wireless Instruments and Witchcraft
29:21 Caetano Veloso: 'Tropicalia'
30:27 Caetano Celebrating Everything: "We Can Say Yes to All These Things"
30:50 A Mentor Who Keeps Evolving: "I Want to Be Able to Do That"
31:59 Political Messages in Flower Language: Getting Ideas Past the Censors
32:35 Learning from Caetano and Celia Cruz: Protest Songs Don't Have to Shout
32:58 "Years Ago, I Was an Angry Man"
33:31 Rearranging the Old Songs: They're Recognisable, But the Meaning Changes
33:57 Playing "Life During Wartime" Today: "It Seems Too Real, Too Close"
34:46 Licensing News Footage: "It Takes Your Breath Away"
35:17 Songs That Evolve Personally and Globally. Communion in Concert
36:32 What an Absolute Joy: David Byrne Across Five Songs
36:56 Next Time: Jacinda Ardern
37:31 Season 5 of Take 5 with Zan Rowe. Stream on ABC iview
This episode was filmed for season 5 of Take 5 with Zan Rowe on ABC TV and ABC iview. You can stream the whole season on ABC iview now.
Watch this episode of Take 5 on ABC iview: 
https://iview.abc.net.au/show/take-5-with-zan-rowe

When you look back at the Australian artists who've made their mark internationally, Savage Garden are right up there. 
Two guys from Brisbane who went Number 1 around the world, cracked the notoriously tough U.S. market and sold nearly 30 million albums with hits like 'I Want You', 'To The Moon And Back', and 'Truly Madly Deeply'.
 They may have only been together for two albums, but the legacy of their pop breakthrough continues, as does frontman Darren Hayes' incredible story.
While he was sailing the highs of global fame, behind the scenes, Darren was dealing with a fractured band relationship, battling depression, and in the closet, unable to be truly himself. 
As a now proudly out gay man, he continues to sing his stories as a solo artist, but the road hasn't always been smooth sailing. 
Growing up in Logan, Queensland, the youngest of three in a home shadowed by severe domestic violence, who could have predicted that this sensitive kid who loved to sing would one day stand on the world's biggest stages?
Darren's story is extraordinary: 250 rejection letters before anyone would sign Savage Garden, a manager who mortgaged his home to make it happen, and a partnership with Daniel Jones that produced some of the most iconic pop of the '90s before it all came crashing down. There have been plenty of lows too; being told by his own record company to hide who he was, the sudden loss of his mother, and a terrifying accident that shattered his jaw and nearly ended his singing career for good. But Darren Hayes is back, and he's got stories.
This episode was captured at Chaplin Studios in Los Angeles, which was the building originally built by Charlie Chaplin, later home to A&M Records, and the exact room where "We Are the World" was recorded (Quincy Jones directing Michael Jackson, Diana Ross, Bob Dylan, Cyndi Lauper, and a room full of legends). It's a space steeped in music history, and if you believe the people who work there, a few ghosts as well. It was the perfect place to sit down with Darren and travel through a life defined by music, survival, and healing.
Darren Hayes' song choices: 
The Dream Academy - 'Life in a Northern Town'
HAIM - 'Hallelujah'
Young The Giant - 'The Walk Home'
Coldplay - 'O'
Maisie Peters – 'Two Weeks Ago'
00:00 Introduction and Setting the Scene at Chaplin Studios
02:31 The History of Chaplin Studios: From Charlie Chaplin to A&M Records
04:00 Karen Carpenter's Ghost and the Sacred Walls
05:13 The Theme: Songs of Healing and Music Saving a Life
05:41 Growing Up with Domestic Violence in Logan, Queensland
06:05 Music as Escape: AM Radio, The Carpenters, and Auntie Jenny's Records
06:56 Learning to Sing from Diana Ross and His Mother's Voice
08:01 The Dream Academy - 'Life in a Northern Town'
08:50 Catharsis Through Melancholy and the Sentimentality of Childhood
10:52 Transitions: Missing His Siblings and "The Morning Lasted All Day"
12:12 The End of High School and Not Wanting to Grow Up
14:23 Growing Up in Logan: Feeling Like a Prince Despite Poverty
15:12 A Hyper-Masculine World and Making Star Wars Toys Kiss
15:44 Deciding He Was Famous at Age Ten: Protective Armor Against Bullying
16:38 Being Called the F Word by His Father Before He Knew What It Meant
18:05 Either Be Famous and Magical, or Die
18:27 His Job Was to Keep His Mother Alive
19:21 Hockey Sticks and Midnight Escapes: Surviving His Father's Violence
20:15 Haim - 'Hallelujah'
21:02 The Sound of Grace: Guardian Angels and Being Protected
21:58 Being Uninvited from a Party and His Mother's Comfort
23:30 "You've Got a Hallelujah": Surviving Childhood
24:46 When Did Music Become the Path? High School Choir and Musical Theatre
25:50 Feeling the Molecules Change When He Sang
27:57 The First Band: A Death Metal Audition and Joining Red Edge with Daniel Jones
29:26 Throwing Up on the Way to Toowoomba: Playing Aussie Classics He Didn't Know
30:14 Leaving Red Edge and the Beginning of Savage Garden
31:05 The First Song They Wrote Together: A Thousand Words
31:25 The Australian Music Landscape: Grunge vs. Pop and 250 Rejection Letters
33:26 John Woodruff Mortgaged His Home and No One Was Laughing Anymore
33:46 Global Fame, Fans as Mirrors, and the Exhausting Rollercoaster
35:58 Secrets: Being Gay, Depression, and the Record Company Hiding Who He Was
36:45 Young The Giant - 'The Walk Home'
37:24 Why Savage Garden Ended: Daniel's Unhappiness with Fame
37:49 The Sum of the Parts and Beatlesque Chemistry in the Studio
38:32 Touring the World Knowing It Was Over
39:51 His Relationship with Daniel Now: "We Don't Talk Much Anymore"
41:21 Solo Records, Coming Out, and the Album Called Homosexual
42:01 Queer Fans and the First Dapple of Sunlight
42:49 What His Mother Thought of Fame: She Couldn't Have Given a Shit
43:47 Paying Cash for a House So His Mother Could Finally Leave
44:48 Coldplay - 'O'
45:08 Grief, Letting Go, and the Sudden Loss of His Mother
46:43 Choosing This Song for Her Funeral
47:22 The Flock of Birds Metaphor and Cutting the Tether
48:15 "I Had to Let Her Go Like a Beautiful Balloon"
50:18 The Accident: A Vasovagal Syncope Episode That Shattered His Jaw
50:44 Seventeen Teeth Broken, Mouth Wired Shut for Three Months, and Learning to Sing Again
51:02 The Troubadour Comeback: "If I Don't Get Back on Stage, I May Never"
51:51 What It Felt Like: Love
52:18 Carrying His Mother's DNA in His Heart and Vocal Cords
52:49 Maisie Peters - 'Two Weeks Ago'
53:14 In Love: How His Dog Huxley Found Eddie
54:38 Four Blocks Apart for a Decade and Zoom Dates with a New Partner
55:41 Never Spending a Night Apart in Three Years
56:23 2027: The 30th Anniversary of Savage Garden and a New Record
56:48 Writing Melodies with His Mouth Wired Shut
57:39 "I'm Back, Baby"
58:53 Next Time: David Byrne
59:53 Take 5 with Zan Rowe – Stream the Series on ABC iview
This episode was filmed for season 5 of Take 5 with Zan Rowe on ABC TV and ABC iview. You can stream the whole season on ABC iview now.
Watch this episode of Take 5 on ABC iview: https://iview.abc.net.au/show/take-5-with-zan-rowe
There are parts of this conversation that explore Darren’s experiences with family violence. It’s a big part of his story, so please be warned. And if you need support, here are some resources who provide it:
1800 Respect National Helpline on 1800 737 732
Lifeline on 131 114
Men's Referral Service on 1300 766 491
Mensline on 1300 789 978
Full Stop Australia on 1800 385 578
Emergency services on triple-0 if you need immediate care