The Systemic Way

What shapes our experience of therapy beyond the words we speak? How might the physical environment, our bodies and the objects around us influence what becomes possible in a therapeutic encounter?
In this episode of The Systemic Way, we are joined by Chris Loh and Federico Albertini to explore new materialisms and their potential to challenge and expand systemic psychotherapy. Drawing on philosophical ideas that question familiar divisions between mind and body, human and non-human, and nature and culture, we consider what happens when we look beyond language, narratives and social construction to explore the material conditions through which our experiences and relationships take shape.
The conversation explores the distinction between interaction and correspondence, inviting us to think about relationships not simply as exchanges between separate individuals, but as processes through which people and their worlds continually emerge and change. We consider what this means for therapeutic reflexivity, including the possibility that therapists are not simply observing or influencing families, but are themselves being changed through their encounters.
Through clinical examples, including work with eating disorders, we explore how bodies, objects, spaces and other non-human elements might participate in shaping therapeutic processes. We also examine how the concepts and assumptions therapists bring into the room influence what they notice, how they interpret distress, and whose experiences are heard or overlooked.
Importantly, this is not simply a call to pay more attention to the therapy room or to replace established systemic approaches. The discussion raises questions about how these philosophical ideas can inform clinical practice, how they sit alongside evidence and risk assessment, and how we engage critically with the intellectual traditions from which they emerge.
Join us for a conversation that invites systemic therapists to reconsider the boundaries of therapeutic practice, the nature of agency and change, and the complex relationships between people, bodies, language and the material world.

Albertini, F.M.,  Christiansen, J.C.V.,  Loh, C. &  Nijabat, N. (2025)  New materialism(s) and systemic psychotherapy: Does it matter? (PART 1). Journal of Family Therapy,  47, e12479. Available from: https://doi.org/10.1111/1467-6427.12479

In this episode of The Systemic Way, we welcome back Professor Peter Rober to discuss his book Becoming an Effective Family Therapist, focusing on the emotional life of the therapist.
Peter explores how our feelings in the therapy room can offer valuable clues about family relationships, alliances and the dynamics unfolding between people. Through clinical examples, he considers how therapists can recognise when they are being drawn towards one family member, use their emotional responses to open up new conversations, and move between self-regulation and co-regulation.
We also explore what it means to be “appropriately uncomfortable”, the role of supervision, and how gender, power and professional boundaries shape our responses to families.
A rich and thoughtful conversation about the person of the therapist, the challenges of emotional awareness, and how we can remain curious, connected and effective in our work.

In this episode of The Systemic Way, we are joined by Dr Mairi Evans, Systemic Therapist, Social Worker and Clinical Director in the NHS, to explore autism, neurodivergence and the stories that shape how people are understood within families, services and wider society.
Drawing on her doctoral research with mothers of autistic girls, Mairi explores the “aha moments” that can emerge through the diagnostic journey, and what changes once a diagnosis is given. We discuss the history and social construction of autism, the limitations of stereotypical and gendered understandings, and the difference between observed autism and the lived experience of being autistic.
Mairi introduces the idea of “Oughtism” to explore the pressures placed on autistic people and their families to behave in particular ways. Through examples from family life, she considers how dominant ideas about what families “should” look like can create additional pressures, and how systemic therapists can help families develop their own ways of being together.
The conversation also explores the relationship between autism and ADHD, the limitations of linear ideas of the spectrum, the double bind created by diagnosis and service systems, and the importance of holding both neurodivergence and the wider family context in mind.
Throughout, Mairi brings together social constructionism, CMM and systemic thinking with a strong focus on lived experience. She argues for a shift away from seeing neurodivergence as specialist territory and towards making neuroinclusion “everybody’s business”.
We also consider what this might mean for systemic family therapy, including how curiosity, neuro-informed not-knowing, hypothesising and attention to family relationships can become part of everyday practice.
A conversation about diagnosis, language, family life, service design and the possibilities for a more neuroinclusive systemic practice.

Dr Mairi Evans is a Systemic Therapist and Social Worker with experience of working in social care, child and adolescent mental health, adult mental health, neurodevelopmental services and senior management in the NHS.  Mairi has a professional doctorate in systemic practice, in which she focused on the diagnostic experience of autism for the mothers of autistic girls. Taking a social constructionist perspective and adopting the Co-ordinated Management of Meaning as a lens Mairi has explored the balance and relationship between co-constructed narratives (stories told) and lived experience (stories lived) for autistic people, their families and helping professionals. She has worked to connect theory to practice across health and social care organisations in order to promote connections, improve services and to reduce barriers to healthcare for autistic people and their families.  
As a Clinical Director in the NHS, Mairi has an interest in stories for change in wider NHS systems and the relationship between research narratives, commissioning decision makers, service providers and the individuals that seek support.
Publications:
Oughtism and Oughtistic Narratives in the Lives of Autistic People and their Families (gvsu.edu)
Autism and Systemic Practice – Autism and Intersectionality: Implications for Systemic and Relational Psychotherapeutic Practice and Research (systemicautism.com)
How do Mothers of Autistic Girls Perceive and Experience the Potential Affordances and Constraints of Diagnosis for their Daughters? (Thesis, University of Bedfordshire)
The “Aha Moment”: Exploring autism narratives as told by the mothers of autistic girls (Murmurations: Journal of Transformative Systemic Practice)

What happens when we stop asking, “Who is right?” and start asking, “What are we making here?”
In this episode of The Systemic Way, we are joined by Abbie VanMeter from the CMM Institute and host of the wonderful podcast Stories Lived and Stories Told  for a wide-ranging and deeply engaging conversation about Coordinated Management of Meaning (CMM).
The conversation explores Abbie's personal and professional journey into Coordinated Management of Meaning (CMM), how she has come to embody the approach, and what CMM can offer systemic psychotherapy and everyday relationships.
Abbie’s journey into CMM is an unexpected one. What began with discovering CMM during the pandemic led to her creating Stories Lived and Stories Told, a podcast now in its fifth season, and to a much deeper exploration of how we create meaning with one another.
We talk about what CMM looks like beyond the theory. How does it change the way we listen, communicate and understand relationships? What happens when we begin to notice the meanings we are creating together in the moment?
The conversation takes us into some big questions about curiosity, uncertainty, power and expertise. We explore what it means for therapists to hold professional knowledge while also recognising the knowledge and expertise of the people they work with.
Abbie talks about curiosity as a “superpower” and the importance of “actually not knowing”. We consider what it means to meet people where they are, rather than assuming we need to bring them somewhere else.
We also explore the relationship between lived, told and untold stories. What might become possible when we recognise that there are stories that have not yet been heard, understood or given space?
Along the way, we talk about embodiment, improv, “yes and”, the LUUT Model, the complexity of CMM and the experience of learning a theory that becomes increasingly difficult to “unsee”.
This is not simply a conversation about learning CMM. It is a conversation about how we live it.
How we communicate.
How we make meaning.
How we relate to one another.
And ultimately, what kind of social worlds we are creating together.
This is Part One of a two-part conversation. In Part Two, Abbie turns the microphone on Julie and Sezer to explore their own journeys into systemic psychotherapy and the story behind The Systemic Way.

Link to Part two

https://substack.com/app-link/post?publication_id=2466190&post_id=215273874&utm_source=podcast-email&play_audio=true&r=3e6jkh&utm_campaign=email-play-on-substack&token=eyJ1c2VyX2lkIjoyMDUyMTg0NDksInBvc3RfaWQiOjIxNTI3Mzg3NCwiaWF0IjoxNzg5NTMxMzMxLCJleHAiOjE3OTIxMjMzMzEsImlzcyI6InB1Yi0yNDY2MTkwIiwic3ViIjoicG9zdC1yZWFjdGlvbiJ9.l-mgXbg2Jf_S8uj4tXnySHyXnjkFoHVIiGgpGokdzTQ&utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email&utm_content=play_card#play

What happens when the systems designed to help us start shaping, limiting or even defining the problems we are trying to solve?
In this episode of The Systemic Way, we are joined by Mark Phillips, a highly experienced systemic psychotherapist, mental health nurse and strategic leader who has worked across NHS, local authority and youth justice services for more than two decades. Mark is currently Strategic Health Lead for Youth Justice Services and Head of Family Therapy at Coventry and Warwickshire NHS Trust, and also works as a consultant systemic psychotherapist and supervisor. He qualified as a systemic psychotherapist at the Tavistock and Portman NHS Trust in 2005. 
Together, we explore neoliberalism and its impact on systemic practice, mental health and public services. We talk about the growing emphasis on individual responsibility, productivity, measurement and outcomes, and what can be lost when complex relational and social difficulties are reduced to individual problems.
Mark shares reflections from his work in youth justice, CAMHS and local authority services, including the tensions between behavioural interventions and more contextual, relational approaches. We explore power, privilege, oppression, organisational culture, payment-by-results, professional identity and the politics of therapy.
We also consider what it means for systemic practitioners to become agents of resistance and change: finding allies, learning to speak the language of organisations, challenging taken-for-granted assumptions and creating spaces for alternative ways of working.
Ultimately, this is a conversation about how we understand the systems we work within—and what possibilities emerge when we become willing to question them.
Chapters:
00:00 – Neoliberalism, Mental Health & Resistance Within The Systems We Live In
03:32 – Meet Mark Phillips
05:52 – An Accidental Journey into Systemic Psychotherapy
08:02 – Privilege, Marginalisation & Identity
20:31 – When Therapy Becomes Part of an Oppressive System
23:42 – Positivism, Relativism & Understanding People in Context
28:18 – What Is Neoliberalism?
34:57 – The Paradox of Payment by Results
36:35 – From Behavioural to Relational Practice
40:48 – Systemic Practice as Activism
42:00 – “Be With Us”: Co-Construction & Collaboration
43:51 – Learning to Speak the Language of the System
48:18 – Finding Allies Within the System
50:12 – Individual Responsibility & Systemic Inequality
51:54 – Neoliberalism & the Productivity Machine
58:19 – Systemic Practice as Resistance
1:00:49 – Taking Risks & Speaking Truth to Power
1:05:12 – Finding Pockets of Possibility
1:09:33 – Moving Beyond “This Is How We Do Things”
1:10:53 – Putting Systemic Theory Into Action