Catch the final episode in this season of Transforming Engagement, the Podcast, where we’ve been considering Church After Mars Hill and using The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill as a case study. We’ve considered a number of aspects of that story:          Patriarchy and mutuality          Whiteness and diversity          Violent imagery and peace making          Toxic cultures  and psychological health          Models of church          Art as transaction and transcendence          The move toward a Tov culture. But as we come to the close of this conversation and the end of this season of the podcast, what are we to do now? Join us for the final installment of Season 4 of Transforming Engagement, the Podcast, as host Joel Kiekintveld shares his insightful perspectives. If you’ve enjoyed this season of Transforming Engagement, the Podcast, please spread the word and share it with your friends! And if you would like to catch up or re-listen to any episode from this season, you can find them all, including show notes and transcripts, at transformingengagement.org/podcast  

We’re joined this week by father-daughter team, Dr. Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer, co-authors of A Church Called Tov: Forming a Goodness Culture That Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes Healing.   Their book was inspired by the events at Willow Creek Church, prompting them to explore toxic church cultures and the need for change. They contrast toxic church cultures with tov cultures (tov meaning "good" in Hebrew).   In toxic church cultures such as Mars Hill or Willow Creek, the marks include narcissism, fear, institution creep, false narratives, loyalty culture, celebrity culture, and a focus on leadership culture. On the other hand, tov cultures are characterized by empathy, grace, people-first approach, telling the truth, justice, service culture, and Christlikeness culture.   Their book has provided language and hope for those who have experienced toxicity in churches, giving a voice to the wounded resistors. In their upcoming book, Pivot, Scot and Laura focus on the "how" of building tov cultures.   We hope you’ll find that this conversation continues our goal of not only exposing the characteristics of toxic church culture but also offering hope for restoration and the rebuilding of a different and healthier community of believers.   Listener resources: Check out A Church Called Tov: Forming a Goodness Culture That Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes Healing by Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer Pre-order Scot and Laura’s follow up book, Pivot: the Priorities, Practices and Powers that Can Transform Your Church into a Tov Culture , coming in September 2023 Read Laura Barringer’s article, “Willow Creek’s Core Meeting: A Response” in Christianity Today. More works referenced in this episode: Lectures on Calvinism by Abraham Kuyper; H. Richard Niebuhr; David Brooks; Organizational Culture and Leadership by Edgar Schein. If you are a Christian leader or pastor seeking a space for support, growth, and transformation for yourself or for your team, we invite you to participate in one of our cohort programs, called a Circle. To learn more and to get on the waitlist to be notified when our next Circle is offered, click here.

In this episode of "Church After Mars Hill," host Joel Kiekintveld is joined by Dr. Chelle Stearns to focus on the intersection of art, expression, and theology within the modern Western church.    Many churches invest heavily in elements like worship teams, video production, and visual presentations. However, this often lends itself to one-way communication, prioritizing the leaders and visuals at the front of the room, rather than fostering genuine community-building and open conversations among the congregation.   The conversation centers on the modern church’s tendency to view art and worship in a consumer-oriented manner, rather than tapping into their potential to create communal connections.    What if we shifted away from using artistic expression as a transactional or manipulative tool, solely flowing from the stage to the congregation? What if, instead, we invited a communal expression of art, beauty, and wonder - even when it challenges our established beliefs?    By embracing art as a means of encountering the divine, deepening spirituality, and embracing the diverse expressions of beauty within our congregations, churches can create more meaningful and transformative experiences for their congregants and the community they serve.   Listener Resources: Read works referenced in this conversation: The Return Of the Prodigal Son by Henri Nouwen; The Pastor in the Secular Age by Andrew Root; The Ethics of Beauty by Timothy Patitsas View Rembrandt’s The Return of the Prodigal Son If you are a Christian leader or pastor seeking a space for support, growth, and transformation for yourself or for your team, we invite you to participate in one of our cohort programs, called a Circle. To learn more and to get on the waitlist to be notified when our next Circle is offered, click here.  

In this episode, we explore a new perspective on church with Dr. Dwight Friesen, who asks us: "How do I start where I am? Wherever I am, how do I discover being church here?" Instead of viewing church as a megachurch attracting distant members, we shift our focus to being church in our own context. We’re honored to be joined by Dr. Dwight Friesen, an Associate Professor of practical theology at The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology, who is dedicated to rediscovering the true essence of being a church within a specific place and neighborhood.   To provide some context, Dwight shares his initial connection with Mark Driscoll, the founder of Mars Hill, during the mid-1990s when they were both starting as pastors in Seattle. They even considered merging their churches at one point, but theological differences and subsequent events led them to go their separate ways.   While Mark Driscoll went on to build a megachurch at Mars Hill, Dwight and his partner Lynette took a different approach. They emphasized the significance of community, proximity, and actively listening to the needs of their neighborhood. Instead of imposing a predetermined "church model," Dwight deliberately focused on understanding and addressing the specific needs of their immediate community.   This conversation challenges the traditional megachurch model, which often relies heavily on attracting new members for economic prosperity. Instead, it encourages us to explore how to be church in our current contexts and locations. By paying attention to the culture and listening to the needs of people in our own neighborhoods, we can bear witness to systemic forms of oppression and transformation. This awareness calls for a different kind of faithfulness—an active presence that engages with the realities of the moment.   Dwight raises a thought-provoking question: "How do we discover what it means to participate in what God is doing here without assuming what the good news should look like, but rather being open to discovery?"  

As we continue to examine the case study that is Mars Hill Church, we’re asking a couple of questions in this conversation:  First, how do we create faith communities that know what abuses of power look like and call those behaviors out?  And second, how do we build environments that seek to be psychologically healthy for everyone? Our guest this week is Doug Shirley, EdD, core faculty with The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology with expertise in counseling, Divinity, and pastoral community counseling. Doug's passion lies in understanding and improving the emotional, relational, and spiritual lives of individuals in helping and healing professions. The sheer number of individuals seeking help for mental health issues following the Mars Hill debacle underscores the unhealthy nature of the church environment. Our conversation explores strategies for creating psychologically healthy spaces within faith communities, emphasizing the importance of two-way dialogue, accountability, openness, and honesty.  Listener resources: This conversation references: Finite and Infinite Games by James Carse; The Priest in Community by Urban T. Holmes, III; The Emotionally Healthy Leader by Peter Scazzero; Life Together by Dietrich Bonhoeffer; Trauma and Recovery and Truth and Repair by Judith Herman, MD; the words and thoughts of Dr. Steve Call from The Reconnect Institute, Nadia Bolz-Weber, Resmaa Menakem, Brian McLaren, Dr. Tali Hariston, and Parker Palmer. If you are a Christian leader or pastor seeking a space for support, growth, and transformation for yourself or for your team, we invite you to participate in one of our cohort programs, called a Circle. To learn more and to get on the waitlist to be notified when our next Circle is offered, click here.