Sounds of SAND

Recorded August 14, 2026

From a nondual perspective, aren't the world's great spiritual traditions expressions of a single living wisdom? In this intimate conversation, Pir Zia Inayat Khan explores the inspiration behind Tears from the Mother of the Sun, a sweeping mythic chronicle of sages, exiles, and revelations spanning continents and planes of existence. Drawing on sacred stories from Persia, India, Egypt and beyond, the book weaves the world's legends into a vision of humanity's shared spiritual inheritance. Together we discover the place of myth in a modern world, the imagination as a path of knowing, and the role of our deepest stories in restoring a sense of belonging to one another, to the Earth, and to the mystery that animates us all.

Topics

00:00 Welcome

00:03 Growing up in a universalist lineage

00:06 Ferdowsi, Soroush, and the frame of the book

00:11 Why the world's traditions belong to one story

00:14 History as a living stream: the three worlds

00:16 The Mongols, violence, and unification

00:19 "I was a hidden treasure": the beginning of history

00:22 Syzygy, and the question of AI

00:29 Honoring the Earth inside our devices

00:34 Isis, Osiris, and the birth of music at Gaza

00:43 Grief, contraction, and the opening of the heart

00:49 Rabia, Noor Inayat Khan, and the green shoots

Pir Zia Inayat Khan

Pir Zia Inayat Khan, PhD, is a scholar of religion and teacher of Sufism in the universalist Sufi lineage of his grandfather, Hazrat Inayat Khan. He is president of the Inayatiyya and founder of Sulūk Academy, a school of Sufi contemplative study and practice. He divides his time between Richmond, Virginia and Suresnes, France.

pirzia.org

Inayatiyya

Sulūk Academy

The book

Tears from the Mother of the Sun: A Secret History of the World, Inner Traditions, 2026, with full-color paintings by Amruta Patil

Amruta Patil, writer, painter, and India's first female graphic novelist, author of Kari, Adi Parva, Sauptik, and Aranyaka

Also by Pir Zia

Immortality: A Traveler's Guide

Mingled Waters: Sufism and the Mystical Unity of Religions

Saracen Chivalry: Counsels on Valor, Generosity and the Mystical Quest

Dream Flowers: The Collected Works of Noor Inayat Khan

Caravan of Souls: An Introduction to the Sufi Path of Hazrat Inayat Khan (editor)

Figures and ideas in the conversation

Lineage

Hazrat Inayat Khan (1882–1927), who brought universal Sufism to the West

Pir Vilayat Inayat Khan, who convened interspiritual dialogues and conversations with modern science, including with David Bohm

Noor Inayat Khan, storyteller, author of children's tales and retellings of the Jātaka tales, and SOE wireless operator in occupied France. Killed at Dachau in 1944. Her last word was liberté.

Persia and the frame of the book

Ferdowsi, author of the Shahnameh, who died in Tus believing his life's work had come to nothing

Soroush, the tutelary daimon who narrates the book

The Ishraqi or Illuminationist tradition

Sufi teaching

The Hadith Qudsi: I was a hidden treasure and I longed to be known, so I created the world that I might be known

Rabia al-Adawiyya, who carried a torch to burn down paradise and water to quench the fires of hell, so that God would be loved for God's own sake

Najm al-Din Kubra, killed on the battlefield during the Mongol invasion

Qabz and bast, contraction and expansion

Ar-Rahman, Ar-Rahim, and rahma as the action of the womb

History, empire, and emanation

Genghis Khan and the Palace of Myriad Peace at Karakorum

Akbar and the interreligious debates at Fatehpur Sikri, under the policy of sulh-i-kul, peace with all

Tahqiq, experiential knowing, as against taqlid, following what one has heard

Avicenna and the three contemplations of emanation

Syzygy, the alignment of beings into a molecule of spiritual work

Isis and the birth of music

The story of Isis and Osiris as told by Plutarch, in which Isis buries Osiris at Gaza and blesses a boy named Palestinos, who becomes the first musician

Sirius, whose rising signals the Nile flood, understood as the tears of Isis

Also mentioned

Descending into Light: A Pilgrimage to the Center of the Earth, a seven-week series with Pir Zia and Yuz Ata, October 11 to November 22, 2026

Rumi & The Fire of Radical Love: A Path Through Global Rupture, a four-part SAND course with Omid Safi. Sessions on August 30 and September 6 still to come.

The Eternal Song, SAND's collection of twelve films

Support this gathering

Robert Moor is a journalist and essayist whose work has appeared in The New Yorker, Harper's, The Atlantic, Emergence, and The New York Times. His first book, On Trails, won the National Outdoor Book Award and the William Saroyan International Prize. He lives in Halfmoon Bay, British Columbia. His new book is 'In Trees'.

Topics

00:00 Welcome, and the new SAND course

00:04 A tree is a verb, not a noun

00:06 Branching, brains, and why AI has no roots

00:13 Pruning, gnarling, and the beauty of wounds

00:16 The Bodhi tree at Bodh Gaya

00:19 From On Trails to In Trees

00:22 Tree thinking and the tree of contents

00:27 Intelligence without anthropomorphizing

00:34 Cedars, Haida Gwaii, and deep time

00:38 Branching futures, many apocalypses, and grief

00:47 Hierarchy, the rhizome, and the Korowai

00:52 Rootedness and relationality

Robert Moor

In Trees: An Exploration (Simon & Schuster, April 2026)

On Trails: An Exploration

Robert Moor at Hill Nadell Literary Agency

Books mentioned

Songs for Relinquishing the Earth by Jan Zwicky. Originally hand-sewn by the author on recycled stock and distributed by request; later won the Governor General's Award for Poetry.

Between Earth and Sky: Our Intimate Connections to Trees by Nalini Nadkarni

The Hidden Life of Trees by Peter Wohlleben

Finding the Mother Tree by Suzanne Simard

The Light Eaters by Zoë Schlanger

Thus Spoke the Plant by Monica Gagliano

The Secret Life of Trees by Colin Tudge, source of the "big plant with a stick up the middle" definition

Indigenizing Philosophy through the Land by Brian Burkhart

Sand Talk by Tyson Yunkaporta

A Thousand Plateaus by Gilles Deleuze and Félix Guattari, source of the rhizome

A Secular Age by Charles Taylor, source of the buffered and porous self

“Ancient Green” by Robin Wall Kimmerer

The Garden of Forking Paths by Jorge Luis Borges

A Walk in the Woods by Bill Bryson

People mentioned

Patrick von Aderkas, tree biologist at the University of Victoria, who described a tree as "a growth form"

Jeff Lichtman, neuroscientist and Dean of Science at Harvard

Robert J. O'Hara, who coined the term "tree thinking"

Umeek (Richard Atleo), Nuu-chah-nulth hereditary chief and philosopher, author of Tsawalk: A Nuu-chah-nulth Worldview

Michael Pollan, on the distinction between sentience, intelligence, and consciousness

John McPhee, on structural experimentation in nonfiction

Stephen Tamatea King, the first known tree sitter, who climbed totara trees in New Zealand in the 1970s

Joanna Macy, "there is no away to throw things to"

Places and peoples

Gwaii Haanas National Park Reserve, Haida Gwaii

The Korowai of Papua, treehouse dwellers with almost no hierarchy

Nuu-chah-nulth communities of Vancouver Island

The Bodhi tree at Bodh Gaya, a Ficus religiosa replanted from the offspring of the original

Lucy, the Australopithecus afarensis fossil in Ethiopia

Purgatorius, the ground-dwelling ancestor of mammalian life

From SAND

Liberation Psychology: Roots, Memory, and Practice, the new nine-month course with Dr. Samah Jabr, Dr. Eduardo Duran, Linda Thai, Daniel Foor, Dr. Jennifer Mullan, and Dr. Bayo Akomolafe. Scholarships available for 20 to 30 percent of seats.

Sila, a nonlinear documentary following Inuit women through 300 years of Danish colonialism, available to watch now

The Eternal Song film series

Previous episodes with Monica Gagliano and Tyson Yunkaporta

Contact SAND

podcast@scienceandnonduality.com

Support the mission of SAND and the production of this podcast by becoming a SAND Member

The third conversation in "The Great AI Unraveling", recorded live with our community on July 10, 2026.

Throughout time, humanity has experimented with playing God, and each time we have been humbled by forces larger than ourselves. Many Indigenous Nations consciously chose not to pursue certain technologies, recognizing that not every innovation serves life, and that wisdom lies in understanding the boundaries of nature and those of our human condition.

As artificial intelligence promises ever greater efficiency, productivity, and control, we are invited to ask a deeper question: Which problem are we really trying to solve? Beneath the relentless pursuit of more—more knowledge, more power, more convenience—lies a profound inquiry into sufficiency, relationship, and meaning.

Guests

Dr. Lyla June Johnston (aka Lyla June) is an Indigenous musician, scholar, and community organizer of Diné (Navajo), Tsétsêhéstâhese (Cheyenne) and European lineages.
Her messages focus on Indigenous rights, supporting youth, traditional land stewardship practices and healing inter-generational and inter-cultural trauma.

She blends her study of Human Ecology at Stanford, graduate work in Indigenous Pedagogy, and the traditional worldview she grew up with to inform her music, perspectives and solutions. Her doctoral research focused on the ways in which pre-colonial Indigenous Nations shaped large regions of Turtle Island (aka the Americas) to produce abundant food systems for humans and non-humans.

Ashley Nicole Leitka comes from the Absentee Shawnee Tribe of Oklahoma and the Oglala and Sicangu Lakota nations. She lives on Absentee Shawnee land in so-called Oklahoma and is the Director of the Department of Sovereignty and Self-Determination at Honor the Earth.

Kathy Wan Povi Sanchez is a native spirit-rooted social activist, community educator, traditional blackware potter, and fluent Tewa language speaker from the Tewa Pueblo of San Ildefonso in New Mexico. For more than two decades, she has been a guiding force within Tewa Women United, advancing environmental justice, cultural revitalization, healing, and social transformation.

A respected elder, teacher, and mentor, Kathy developed the acclaimed Two World Harmony Butterfly Model and Trauma Rocks, innovative frameworks that support cross-cultural understanding and intergenerational healing. Her lifelong work bridges Indigenous wisdom, environmental stewardship, community empowerment, and the protection of cultural and spiritual traditions. Through local, national, and international advocacy, she continues to inspire pathways of healing, resilience, and right relationship with the Earth and one another.

Topics

00:00:00 — Welcome and The Great AI Unraveling

00:04:00 — Superfluity: what if we don't need it

00:08:00 — The maple syrup story

00:12:00 — Kathy Wan Povi Sanchez on natural law

00:19:00 — Data centers on Native land

00:24:00 — Falsely generated demand and cognitive decline

00:27:00 — The data center toolkit and Stop Data Colonialism

00:30:00 — AI as ancestral intelligence: the Butterfly Model

00:38:00 — Why ceremony is never filmed

00:39:00 — Water, energy, and the growth curve

00:48:00 — Surveillance, ICE, and biometrics

00:57:00 — Yvette Running Horse Collin on Lakota science

00:58:00 — Einstein, Hiroshima, and being humbled

01:01:00 — Choosing oral tradition

01:08:00 — Love is the greatest technology

01:10:00 — A litmus test for any technology

Resources & Links

Lyla June — lylajune.com

Tewa Women United — tewawomenunited.org

Honor the Earth

Honor the Earth data center toolkit

Stop Data Colonialism, national coalition and manifesto

Big Tech Is Now Targeting Native American Land for Massive Data Centers, The New York Times, July 2026

Yvette Running Horse Collin on Lakota science, interviewed in Science

ACLU campaign on Flock surveillance cameras

Ashley Nicole Leitka and Dallas Goldtooth in conversation

The Great AI Unraveling series

#1 AI risks, societal impacts, and apocaloptimism: Tristan Harris

#2 Reclaiming the Conversation and the Commons: Tiokasin Ghosthorse and Pooja Prema

Upcoming guests: Christian "Zacatecho" Ortiz, Bayo Akomolafe, Vanessa Machado de Oliveira, Alnoor Ladha, Baratunde Thurston, and Thema Monroe-White

Contact SAND

podcast@scienceandnonduality.com

Support the mission of SAND and the production of this podcast by becoming a SAND Member

Recorded live at our May 2026 online gathering celebrating Little Singer, the Diné film in The Eternal Song series, this conversation with psychologist Eduardo Duran (Apache/Tewa/Lakota) begins with the prophecy of Crazy Horse and moves through the teachings of the elder who trained him, the soul wound and the origins of the term historical trauma, why Indigenous languages of verbs change how we understand diagnosis, and the Diné teaching of K'é: the universe wired in complete relationship. Trauma, he reminds us, is a movement and not an identity, and the medicine is in the song itself. Eduardo joins the teaching panel of our upcoming live course, Liberation Psychology: Roots, Memory & Practice.

Eduardo Duran (Apache/Tewa/Lakota) is a psychologist and Vietnam veteran who has spent most of his career working in Indigenous communities, informed by Buddhist practice, Native teachings, and heart knowing. His work introduced the concepts of the soul wound and historical trauma into clinical practice. He is the author of Buddha in Redface, Healing the Soul Wound, and Native American Postcolonial Psychology.

Topics

00:00:00 — Introduction

00:01:00 — The prophecy of Crazy Horse

00:04:00 — Meeting the elder

00:10:00 — Ordered to write

00:13:00 — Languages of verbs

00:19:00 — "They're there"

00:22:00 — Ceremony and the eternal song

00:26:00 — Quantum entanglement and K'é

00:30:00 — Trauma is not an identity

00:35:00 — Healing the land with prayer

00:40:00 — "Already holy, sacred, and divine"

00:44:00 — The dream had you

00:49:00 — Finding your own roots

00:55:00 — Closing gratitude

Resources & Links

Eduardo Duran

Buddha in Redface

Healing the Soul Wound: Trauma-Informed Counseling for Indigenous Communities

Native American Postcolonial Psychology (with Bonnie Duran)

SAND & The Eternal Song

Liberation Psychology: Roots, Memory & Practice — a new live course by SAND, registration is now open

Watch Little Singer — the Diné film in The Eternal Song series

The Eternal Song film series

Watch Sila — streaming now



Referenced in the conversation

International Council of Thirteen Indigenous Grandmothers

Contact SAND

podcast@scienceandnonduality.com

Support the mission of SAND and the production of this podcast by becoming a SAND Member

Clinical psychologist and longtime Buddhist meditator Dr. Nicole Wordlaw joins us to talk about her new memoir, Waking Up Alone: Navigating the Narrow Passage Through Master-Slave Narratives. Nicole came to practice to end suffering, and found instead that enlightenment as an arrival, all bliss, all peace, was one more construction of the conditioned mind. The conversation moves through the single pattern she came to see beneath white supremacy, patriarchy, and the harm spiritual teachers do to their students; writing as prayer; pain as a door; and the intergenerational line of women whose voices run through the book. A tender and unflinching conversation about telling the whole story, uprooting the internal oppressor, and the quiet, still voice that always sounds like Love.

Dr. Nicole Wordlaw is a clinical psychologist and longtime practitioner of Buddhist meditation whose work bridges psychology, spirituality, and identity. The daughter of a white mother and a Black father, Dr. Wordlaw brings a deeply personal understanding of belonging and self-discovery to her writing and teaching. A Stanford University graduate with honors and distinction, she went on to earn her Ph.D. in clinical psychology from UC Berkeley. In her forthcoming book Waking Up Alone, she vulnerably shares her story of trauma and awakening, and offers gentle guidance for her readers to tune into the quiet voice of truth within.

Topics

00:00:00 — Introduction

00:01:00 — Coming to Buddhism

00:02:00 — Enlightenment as construction

00:05:00 — Love meeting pain

00:06:00 — One pattern of harm

00:09:00 — Writing as prayer

00:11:00 — A naked story

00:15:00 — Somatic abolitionism

00:19:00 — A long line of women

00:23:00 — Shadow and teacher misconduct

00:24:00 — The Sangha Sutra

00:34:00 — Risking making sense to no one

00:38:00 — The Word Story

00:42:00 — The inner teacher

00:47:00 — Love is not an idea

Resources & Links

Dr. Nicole Wordlaw

Website: nicolewordlaw.com

Waking Up Alone: Navigating the Narrow Passage Through Master-Slave Narratives — out now

Substack

Referenced in the conversation

Sounds of SAND — Somatic Abolitionism: Resmaa Menakem & Gabor Maté

Sounds of SAND — The Architecture of Silence in Spiritual Culture

Steve Hagen — Buddhism Plain and Simple

Nisargadatta Maharaj — I Am That

Contact SAND

podcast@scienceandnonduality.com

Support the mission of SAND and the production of this podcast by becoming a SAND Member