More or Less

This week on More or Less, the crew kicks off with a very on-brand derail—Stagecoach turning into a wind-blown 90s reunion-turned-half-capacity vibe, segueing into a chaotic trend report of “booty shorts vs. jorts” before Jessica reframes it as “OpenAI or jorts.” From there, it’s into the real storylines: the Musk v. OpenAI trial in Oakland (Altman and Brockman showing up, Musk posturing, and the judge shutting down theatrics), and whether it’s substance or just WWE for tech. The AI race heats up with reports of ChatGPT missing targets while Anthropic pulls ahead, sparking a broader debate on whether frontier models are sliding into commodity territory—Sam argues narrative over fundamentals while Dave pushes on open-source pressure and who actually foots the data center bill. The conversation expands into geopolitics (regulatory capture, China’s open-source momentum, Meta’s blocked agent play) and earnings (Google Cloud riding Anthropic demand), landing on a sneaky insight: AI’s real cost explosion might be storage, not tokens. They close with a rapid-fire culture sweep—Maria Sharapova’s podcast, NYT rankings, Elon’s Mars comp fantasy, Met Gala backlash, and the final punchline: YouTube growth is way more gameable than anyone wants to admit.Chapters: 00:34 — Stagecoach Chaos: Tornado Winds & Half-Crowd Vibes
01:43 — Summer Trend Report: Booty Shorts vs. Jorts
02:56 — “OpenAI or Jorts?” The Hard Pivot
04:15 — Musk vs OpenAI Trial Begins (And It’s Already Messy)
06:40 — Gag Orders, Jury Drama & Musk’s Opening Stunt
09:03 — Is This Lawsuit Just WWE for Tech?
11:46 — Anthropic Passes OpenAI?! The AI Power Shift
13:57 — AI Is Becoming a Commodity (Sam’s Take)
15:24 — The Real Cost of AI: Tokens vs Labor
18:53 — Open Source Is Eating Everything
21:08 — Outcome-Based Pricing: Fix or Race to Zero?
23:16 — “This Is a Bad Business” (But Everyone Uses It)
26:04 — The Only AI Moat: Regulation or Narrative
29:02 — Why Frontier Models Still Matter
32:04 — China, Open Source & AI Geopolitics
35:06 — Meta’s Blocked AI Deal (Spy Game Energy)
38:07 — Google Wins the AI Race (For Now)
41:23 — The $5B Opportunity Nobody’s Talking About
43:34 — The Real AI Trade: Storage > Tokens
46:58 — Investing Is Dead, Long Live Narrative
We’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/EkpYTFmS4Ak
Connect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit

The full quad is back and we're getting right into the tech drama: AI backlash (from Reese Witherspoon to everyday skepticism), breakthrough science like CRISPR entering its “it actually works” era, and major power shifts across tech — from Apple succession chatter to Jensen Huang’s leadership moments and the brewing battle between OpenAI and Elon Musk. They squad digs into SpaceX IPO dynamics, the rise of “traces” data as the next AI battleground, and what happens when AI gives more people the power to build. Chapters:0:17 — Welcome Back: Full Quad Edition1:07 — Creatine, AI Stuffies, and the Opening Chaos4:37 — Breakthrough Prize & CRISPR Finally Working5:47 — One-of-One Gene Therapy Becomes Real7:07 — The AI Backlash Is Real8:47 — UBI vs. Meaning: The Real Debate10:57 — Jensen’s “I Didn’t Wake Up a Loser Today” Moment12:47 — Apple Succession: Tim Cook → John Ternus16:17 — Asset Prices vs. Reality21:17 — Elon vs. OpenAI: The Trial27:07 — SpaceX IPO: Biggest in History?29:27 — xAI, Cursor, and the $60B Bet36:07 — Traces Data: The Next AI Battleground40:07 — Workplace Surveillance & Employee Data48:27 — Who Gets to Build? (6B Users vs. 50M Builders)51:07 — AI: Equalizer or Concentrator?We’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/bjePLXg64n0Connect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit

SpaceX might be the biggest IPO ever but there’s a math problem no one’s pricing in. Once you factor in capital gains, you need to believe it’ll underperform the market by ~50% just to justify selling. That creates an invisible floor under mega-cap stocks and a market increasingly detached from reality. Meanwhile: Allbirds goes from $4B to $40M and pivots to “NewBird AI.” Seed valuations hit $175M — 3x YoY, above 2021 peak. And AI labs are allegedly planting stories on each other. This week on More or Less: SpaceX’s $19B revenue / $5B losses, the AI bubble, Anthropic $800B rumors, and why fund math is breaking
Chapters:
0:00 — Waymo vs. Uber: the autonomous tipping point
8:29 — Allbirds: $4B → $40M → “NewBird AI”
12:56 — Boom Supersonic and the data center pivot
15:17 — SpaceX IPO: bulls vs. bears
16:14 — The tax problem no one is pricing in
20:16 — Can mega-cap still 50x?26:47 — SpaceX breakdown: Starlink vs. launch
28:20 — Anthropic $800B rumors
30:08 — OpenAI vs. Anthropic: leaks and competition
31:08 — The model switching problem (no real moat)
33:36 — AI behavior shift: “ask the agent”
38:17 — AI labs running oppo research
40:05 — Seed valuations surpass 2021 peak42:00 — Fund math is broken

We’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/FQ5TEs_3Dq8Connect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit

Vercel CEO Guillermo Rauch breaks down the explosive rise of AI agents and what it means for the future of software infrastructure. He joins the Morins to unpack why Anthropic cut off OpenClaw users, why the SaaS subscription model is breaking down, how agents are reshaping cloud infrastructure, and why a new wave of “supergeniuses” (from neurosurgeons to 17-year-olds) are building things no one thought possible. Plus: dreams.md, the future of personal agents, and why agents are becoming the new computer.Chapters:00:42 Intro: Guillermo Rauch, CEO and Founder of Vercel01:48 Vercel Explodes 5X Growth and AI Traffic Surge03:51 Why Anthropic Shut Down OpenClaw Users04:47 Coding Agents Are the Path to AGI07:57 70 Percent of Vercel Traffic Is Now AI09:50 SaaS Is Dead Pay Per Token Takes Over13:16 Anthropic vs OpenClaw Closed vs Open Agents14:47 The Hidden Risk of AI Data and Training16:38 Why Everyone Wants Their Own AI18:08 The Shift to Agent Native Infrastructure19:45 Vibe Coded Apps Are Going Viral21:42 The AI Wars Anthropic OpenAI Elon23:15 Dreams md Self Improving AI Agents25:44 Memory Theory of Mind and Agent Intelligence28:05 Your AI Should Travel With You30:00 Enterprise AI and Domain Expert Agents31:15 How Vercel Became an AI Native Company33:06 Hiring in the Age of AI Agents36:03 The Rise of Supergeniuses38:10 Inside Slows Creator AI Hackathon40:06 AI Agents Are the New Customers41:18 Moving Up the Stack Again42:05 What Happens in the Next 12 Months43:48 AI Will Break Cloud and SecurityWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/f43JCxhKLEgConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit

Sam Lessin accidentally emailed 40 of Silicon Valley's most important people using an AI bot — and that one mishap reveals everything broken about the AI security model right now. In this episode, Sam and Dave Morin (calling in from ClawCon Tokyo) argue that AI agents are quietly dismantling every security assumption the internet was built on: from open-source package trust chains to content moderation walls to the entire premise of software moats. Meanwhile, Jessica Lessin shares her own Claude Code disaster that proves even careful people are one 'approve' click away from chaos. The team also tears apart OpenAI's $852 billion valuation, debate whether 10 million software developers are about to become irrelevant, and explain why a professional skier in Alaska just built the app she'd been pitching for two years — in a single afternoon.

Chapters:

We’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/Gv-VUTGVNT8Connect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit