Second Wind by AKA

By almost every measure advertising has for keeping score, Aaron Starkman and Rethink are on top of the world.
As Global Chief Creative Officer & Partner at Rethink, Aaron has helped build one of the most acclaimed independent agencies in advertising, behind famous work for Heinz, IKEA, Coors and more.
Rethink has been named Independent Agency of the Year at nearly every major international award show, including Cannes Lions, The One Show, The Clios, London International Awards and The ANDYs.
In 2024, Rethink was named Cannes Lions Independent Agency and Network of the Year, and holds the #1 spot on WARC’s Global Independent Agency ranking and The Drum World Creative Rankings.
So about 45 minutes into this conversation, Kerrie asks Aaron a fascinating question:
Has all that success finally satisfied his need for validation?
His answer goes all the way back to the beginning of his career.
“I was fired three times as a junior and it f*cked with me.”
Aaron talks candidly about getting fired early in his career, the anxiety it created, and how the fear of it happening again became fuel. He opens up about therapy, medication, losing his mother, and the extraordinary dream after she died that finally pushed him to deal with what was taking up so much space in his head.
But this is also a fascinating look inside how Rethink consistently makes great creative work.
Aaron breaks down CRAFTS and Go Then Grow, why constraints make creativity better, how Rethink beta-tests creative ideas in the real world, why they don’t use the word “client,” and the Relationship Accelerator they use to build trust between agencies and brands.
We also get into AI and the future of advertising.
While much of the industry is focused on using AI to make advertising faster and cheaper, Rethink is going the other way: doubling down on human creativity and working toward having 50% of the company made up of creatives.
Aaron’s take:
“Average feels like AI.”
A remarkably candid conversation about creativity, ambition, anxiety, advertising, AI, leadership, client relationships, mental health — and what happens when achieving everything you thought you wanted doesn’t necessarily make the noise disappear.
Aaron Starkman is Global Chief Creative Officer & Partner at Rethink.
Second Wind is hosted by Kerrie Finch, Jake Neske, and Gully Flowers, and made by AKA.

Nico Poalillo spent years being told he needed to pick one thing.
Director. Producer. Photographer. Creative. Experiential.
Instead, he kept doing all of it.
Now he’s bringing that multidisciplinary career to General Motors, joining GM as Director of Global Design Visualization and Environments.
On this episode of Second Wind, Nico joins Gully Flowers and Kerrie Finch to talk about the unlikely path from growing up in Southern California to moving to Detroit, living in a $150-a-month closet, shooting bands, working across agencies and production, directing for brands including Cadillac, Acura, Apple and Nike, and helping create live experiences for artists including Bad Bunny and Bad Omens.
He also opens up about the cancer diagnosis that forced him to reassess his relationship with work, why it ultimately changed the way he leads, and what returning to Detroit to join one of the world’s most storied automotive design organizations means to him.
We get into:
• Why young creatives shouldn’t be afraid to do more than one thing
• How Detroit shaped Nico’s career and creative philosophy
• The rise of multidisciplinary creative careers
• Why experiential and IRL experiences are having a moment
• Building cultural experiences with Bad Bunny and Bad Omens
• What cancer taught him about ambition, work and leadership
• Why creatives are increasingly moving upstream inside brands
• The opportunity — and responsibility — of joining General Motors
• How Nico thinks about GM’s century of design heritage
• Why the next generation of creatives should build their own “creative ecosystem”
Nico’s advice is simple: go make the other thing.
Shoot something. Design something. Make the zine. Take the photos. Help your friend’s band.
The things that don’t fit neatly into your job title might eventually become the reason someone hires you.
Second Wind is a podcast about what happens next in creative careers, advertising, design, production, marketing and culture.
Hosted by Gully Flowers, Kerrie Finch and Jake Neske.

Consumer psychologist and Thinkerbell founder Adam Ferrier thinks advertising has a bigger problem than AI: the industry is still too focused on making ads.

In this episode of Second Wind, Adam joins Gully Flowers and Kerrie Finch to unpack what advertising and marketing look like when you start with human behavior rather than the 30-second script.

Adam explains why the traditional creative model is breaking down, why advertising creatives need a better understanding of how people actually make decisions, and why some of the biggest creative opportunities are hiding in places the industry routinely ignores.

We also get into artificial intelligence and creativity: Adam’s idea of AI as “System 3,” the difference between cognitive offloading and cognitive surrender, and why he believes AI should enhance human creativity rather than simply make agencies more efficient.

Adam Ferrier is a consumer psychologist, author and founder of Thinkerbell. Before Thinkerbell, he co-founded Naked Communications in Australia and worked at Saatchi & Saatchi. His career spans behavioral science, brand strategy, creativity and advertising effectiveness.

In this episode:

* Why advertising needs to think beyond ads
* AI, creativity and the rise of “System 3”
* System 1, System 2 and how AI changes human thinking
* Cognitive offloading vs. cognitive surrender
* Brand building, future demand and category entry points
* Why the 30-second script still dominates advertising
* What’s wrong with the traditional copywriter/art director model
* Why creative people need to understand behavioral science
* How AI is changing advertising production
* Why email, CRM and customer experience are overlooked creative opportunities
* Creativity, craft and the future of advertising agencies

About Adam Ferrier
Adam Ferrier is the founder and Chief Thinker at Thinkerbell and one of Australia’s best-known consumer psychologists. He is the author of The Advertising Effect and Stop Listening to the Customer, and has worked across behavioral psychology, brand strategy and creativity.

Second Wind is a podcast about what happens next in advertising, creativity, marketing and the people reshaping the industry.

Subscribe for more conversations with the people changing advertising and creativity.

Adam Ferrier thinks the advertising industry has confused making ads with building brands.

The consumer psychologist and founder of Thinkerbell joins Gully Flowers to talk about what marketing is actually supposed to do, and why some of the industry’s most familiar assumptions might be getting in the way.

Adam explains one of the simplest frameworks we’ve heard for thinking about marketing: current demand versus future demand. Some people are buying your category today. Many more will buy in the future. The job is to build memory structures linked to category entry points so your brand comes to mind when they eventually enter the market.

They also get into why Adam doesn’t think advertising is a genuinely creative industry, why so much creative energy still goes into the 30-second ad while huge parts of the customer experience are ignored, and why he’s amazed the traditional art director/copywriter model still exists.

Then there’s AI. Adam introduces the idea of AI as “System 3” alongside our fast, intuitive System 1 and slower, effortful System 2, and makes an important distinction between using AI for cognitive offloading and simply surrendering our thinking to it.

Plus: what creatives could learn from psychology, why Saatchi & Saatchi made scripts rather than ads, Thinkerbell’s “measured magic,” and what happens to creativity when everyone has access to the same tools.

Adam Ferrier is a consumer psychologist and founder of Thinkerbell, the independent agency behind the philosophy of “measured magic.”

Pancho Cassis is Global CCO and Partner at DAVID and one of the creative leaders behind Burger King’s Moldy Whopper, Stevenage Challenge and some of the most awarded advertising of the last decade.

His starting point for every brief is brutally simple: people will do anything to avoid advertising.

On this episode of Second Wind, Pancho joins Gully Flowers and Kerrie Finch to talk about what it takes to make work people actually want to see — and why spending $50 million doesn’t mean anyone will care.

We get into what he learned judging the Cannes Lions Titanium category; why famous campaigns have an advantage at award shows; what makes an idea travel across countries and cultures; and whether the advertising industry has simply created too many awards.

Pancho also explains why he doesn’t believe creative culture can be built entirely on Zoom, how DAVID gives junior creatives the chance to shape big ideas, and the lesson his father taught him about persuading clients to buy work that scares them: patience.

Plus, we break down DAVID’s Clash of Clans work with Erling Haaland and Pancho’s philosophy of “milking the stone” — don’t stop when you’ve found a good idea; keep pushing until you’ve extracted everything from it.

Pancho Cassis has won 192 Cannes Lions, including eight Grand Prix and three Titanium Lions, as well as a D&AD Black Pencil and dozens of Effies. His work spans Burger King, Supercell, Coca-Cola, Magnum and some of the most recognized creative campaigns in the world.
Second Wind is a podcast about the people, ideas and forces shaping advertising, creativity and marketing.