The Contemplative Pastor

What might happen if we decided to stay—in a place, in a community, in a calling?
In this episode, join Bryan Rouanzoin and Jess Gracewski for a conversation about what we might gain—and risk—by choosing to commit to a community and a place. Jess describes how she’s building spaces of belonging in one of the most transient cities on earth and choosing to steward people with intention for as long or short a time as they’re in her care. Drawing from her own story, she shares why calling is the work of a community and what it means to discern the voice of God when it's coming from the people around us. Throughout the conversation, Bryan and Jess explore what it means to pastor people to feel known, rather than counted.
Jess Gracewski is a spiritual director and Associate Pastor at Reality San Francisco, where she oversees ministries focused on community and spiritual formation, helping others find their place in God's story.
To find more resources and experiences tailored just for you—the pastor—visit practicingtheway.org/pastor.
This podcast and its episodes are free, thanks to the generosity of The Circle and other givers. You can learn more about The Circle or contribute toward future resources like this podcast at practicingtheway.org/give.

What happens when we make peace with the reality that there are no ideal conditions in which to pastor?
In this episode, join Jay Kim and Glenn Packiam for a conversation on finding “your little patch of the world” to be the pastor God has called you to be. Glenn traces the through line of his “misfit” ministry career and the crisis that led him into Eugene Peterson's mentorship, where he first heard the words he would return to again and again : "there are no ideal conditions in which to live out this vocation." He shares the ebb and flow of spiritual practices that sustain his hidden life with God, the radical approach he took entering a new church, and the "constellation of relationships" he believes every pastor needs to flourish. He and Jay unpack the essential difference between weariness and woundedness—in ourselves and in the people we pastor.
Glenn Packiam is the Lead Pastor of Rockharbor Church in Costa Mesa, California. Glenn is the author of several books, including The Resilient Pastor, Blessed Broken Given, and a recent title, What’s a Christian, Anyway? Glenn and his wife Holly live in Orange County, California, with their four children.
To find more resources and experiences tailored just for you—the pastor—visit practicingtheway.org/pastor.
This podcast and its episodes are free, thanks to the generosity of The Circle and other givers. You can learn more about The Circle or contribute toward future resources like this podcast at practicingtheway.org/give.
Mentioned in this conversation:
Job 4:5 (MSG)
The Contemplative Pastor: Returning to the Art of Spiritual Direction by Eugene Peterson
Under the Unpredictable Plant: An Exploration in Vocational Holiness by Eugene Peterson
Working the Angles: The Shape of Pastoral Integrity by Eugene Peterson
Connecting: The Mentoring Relationships You Need to Succeed in Life by Paul Stanley and Robert Clinton

What if our weariness as pastors isn’t a sign of failure, but rather a sign that we’re measuring success by the wrong metric?
In this episode, Bryan Rouanzoin and Bill Dogterom seek to reconcile Jesus’ promise of an “easy yoke” with the pervasive weariness so many pastors experience today. Bill shares how his own weariness sparked a life-changing shift from a church-growth mindset to a formation mindset. He and Bryan discuss the three spiritual practices that help “keep the yoke easy,” why he intentionally distinguishes his personal spirituality from his professional spirituality, and how he recognizes which parts of his soul need care.
Bill Dogterom is professor emeritus in the School of Theology & Ministry at Vanguard University. He has served in pastoral ministry for more than 25 years, including as senior pastor of Foothill Christian Center in California. He has also been involved in pastoral ministry in Canada and the United States.
To find more resources and experiences tailored just for you—the pastor—visit practicingtheway.org/pastor.
This podcast and its episodes are free, thanks to the generosity of The Circle and other givers. You can learn more about The Circle or contribute toward future resources like this podcast at practicingtheway.org/give.
Mentioned in this conversation:
Sabbath As Resistance: Saying No to the Culture of Now by Walter Brueggemann
The Sabbath by Abraham Joshua Heschel
Working the Angles: The Shape of Pastoral Integrity by Eugene H. Peterson
The Practice of the Presence of God by Brother Lawrence
Prayer: Finding the Heart’s True Home by Richard Foster
Prayer by Hans Urs von Balthasar
The Interior Castle by Teresa of Avila
Ruth Burrows
Evenlyn Underhill

What if the most vital work of spiritual formation isn’t first in your church, but in the hidden story you’re already living with God? 
In this episode, join Bryan Rouanzoin and Todd Pickett for a conversation on what it means to truly be a contemplative, and the fruit of a life lived this way. Drawing from Todd’s journey through the university and into the local church, they explore how literature and poetry became his training ground for spiritual formation. Along the way, they discuss the essential questions underneath spiritual formation, every pastor’s temptation to make a name for themselves, and the invitation to let God burn away what Todd calls “our fantasy selves” so we can live as our real selves before God, for the sake of those we shepherd.
The Rev. Dr. Todd Pickett (Ph.D.) is pastor of Holy Trinity Anglican Church in Costa Mesa, CA. Prior to his leadership in the pastorate, Dr. Pickett served for 27 years as a professor, Dean of Spiritual Development and campus pastor at Biola University.
To find more resources and experiences tailored just for you—the pastor—visit practicingtheway.org/pastor.
This podcast and its episodes are free, thanks to the generosity of The Circle and other givers. You can learn more about The Circle or contribute toward future resources like this podcast at practicingtheway.org/give.

How can we pastor without sacrificing our own souls on the altar of hurry and anxiety?
In this episode, join Jay Kim and Alan Fadling for a wide-ranging conversation on the inner pace of pastoral ministry. Drawing from over four decades in ministry, Alan explores what it means to practice the presence — not the absence — of God, to tend conditions rather than just drive results, and to embrace the slow, patient work of becoming unhurried, non-anxious shepherds. Along the way, they reflect on Alan’s simple conviction that, in the end, leadership is love — and love isn’t rushed.  
Alan Fadling is the President and Founder of Unhurried Living, Inc. in Mission Viejo, California, a Christian non-profit that trains leaders to rest deeper, live fuller, and lead better. Along with his wife, Gem, he leads PACE, a two-year leadership formation journey. A trained spiritual director and coach with over 30 years of experience, he speaks and consults internationally with organizations like InterVarsity Christian Fellowship, Cru, and Saddleback Church. He is the award-winning author of five core books, including An Unhurried Life, An Unhurried Leader, and A Non-Anxious Life, and is currently working on a forthcoming book on contemplative leadership. He lives in California with his family.
To find more resources and experiences tailored just for you—the pastor—visit practicingtheway.org/pastor.
This podcast and its episodes are free, thanks to the generosity of The Circle and other givers. You can learn more about The Circle or contribute toward future resources like this podcast at practicingtheway.org/give.