No Small Endeavor with Lee C. Camp

This is our unabridged interview with Munther Isaac. Imagine you're in charge of pastoring a congregation amidst a war. What does it mean to love your enemies when violence is outside your window, and visceral images of your congregation’s devastation fill your phone? How would you find hope and carry on? Palestinian Lutheran pastor Munther Isaac joins Lee C. Camp from his home in the West Bank to discuss his book Christ in the Rubble: Faith, the Bible, and the Genocide in Gaza. Drawing from his experience shepherding congregations through two years of war, Munther reflects on grief, anger, and the moral danger of becoming numb to suffering, while still insisting on nonviolence, justice, and the stubborn call to love of enemy. This conversation wrestles with the collision of politics and theology, the misuse of religious language, and what authentic human flourishing, meaning, and courage can look like in the midst of rubble. Key Ideas: Christ also asked where God was amidst suffering. Munther insists that, in Gaza’s devastation, God is not distant but present “under the rubble,” with the oppressed, displaced, and grieving. Nonviolence and creative resistance are needed to break cycles of violence. What it means for a Palestinian pastor to reject terrorism and militarism, yet still speak of “creative resistance in the logic of love” as a practice of justice, courage, and meaningful living. Language can be used to warp our imagination. How labels like “terrorism” and “self-defense” can distort moral vision, and why Munther believes reclaiming moral language is essential to the common good and the search for meaning and purpose. To stop loving is to lose our humanity. Munther’s insistence that true happiness and well-being require refusing to dehumanize even one’s enemies. Religious imagination has real-world implications. Theological worldviews often shape policy, war, and public imagination. Munthers asks, what might it mean for theology and culture to serve justice, mercy, and flourishing instead? A warning to our listeners—this episode contains descriptions of violence and graphic imagery. Please listen with care. ⁠⁠ ⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠⁠ for Munther Isaac⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: Ka’Chava: Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://kachava.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ AquaTru: Go to  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠AquaTru.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use promo code NSE Piper and Leaf: Get a 10% off discount to the Advent Calendar by using my code 'NSE' at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠piperandleaf.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Nations U: Use code ENDEAVOR50 when you visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Nationsu.edu/endeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ CTA: Please donate today at ⁠⁠⁠⁠MercyShips.org/podcast⁠⁠⁠⁠ Omaha Steaks: Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠OmahaSteaks.com⁠⁠⁠⁠ for 50% off sitewide during their Sizzle All the Way Sale. For an extra $35 off, use promo code FUN at checkout. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Family estrangement is rising, but the cultural story behind it is far more complex than “cutting off toxic people.” In this episode, Savannah and Lee unpack the social, psychological, and technological shifts that quietly reshaped our expectations of family. and why forgiveness, repair, and humility might be the most countercultural practices left. In this episode, Savannah and Lee dig into the cultural forces behind the surge in family estrangement, from postmodern distrust of authority to therapy-speak, safetyism, digital overwhelm, and the luxury of disconnection. Drawing on Rachel Haack’s Substack newsletter, they explore how concept creep, para-connection, and wealth have shaped our expectations of parents, children, and in-laws, and why privilege can make cutting off family easier than repairing them. Together they reflect on the emotional weight, legitimate complexities, and real pain inside estrangement, before ending with a conversation on forgiveness…not as excusing harm, but as a courageous path towards freedom. Things we mentioned in this episode: ⁠⁠Labubu Pendant Blind Box⁠⁠ ⁠⁠James by Percival Everett⁠⁠ ⁠⁠ Why Everyone’s Cutting Everyone Off: The Cultural Story Behind Family Estrangement⁠⁠ ⁠⁠David Schnarch's books⁠⁠ ⁠⁠ That All Shall Be Saved: Heaven, Hell, and Universal Salvation by David Bentley Hart⁠⁠ ⁠⁠The Pastor: A Crisis by Bradley Jersak and Wm. Paul Young⁠⁠ ⁠⁠ Why Concepts Creep to the Left by Jonathan Haidt⁠⁠ Follow The Subtext: ⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠Threads⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠X⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠TikTok⁠⁠ Follow Lee: ⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠Twitter⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠Lee's Newsletter⁠⁠ Follow Savannah: ⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠Substack⁠⁠ Join our Email List: ⁠⁠nosmallendeavor.com⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Imagine you're in charge of pastoring a congregation amidst a war. What does it mean to love your enemies when violence is outside your window, and visceral images of your congregation’s devastation fill your phone? How would you find hope and carry on? Palestinian Lutheran pastor Munther Isaac joins Lee C. Camp from his home in the West Bank to discuss his book Christ in the Rubble: Faith, the Bible, and the Genocide in Gaza. Drawing from his experience shepherding congregations through two years of war, Munther reflects on grief, anger, and the moral danger of becoming numb to suffering, while still insisting on nonviolence, justice, and the stubborn call to love of enemy. This conversation wrestles with the collision of politics and theology, the misuse of religious language, and what authentic human flourishing, meaning, and courage can look like in the midst of rubble. Key Ideas: Christ also asked where God was amidst suffering. Munther insists that, in Gaza’s devastation, God is not distant but present “under the rubble,” with the oppressed, displaced, and grieving. Nonviolence and creative resistance are needed to break cycles of violence. What it means for a Palestinian pastor to reject terrorism and militarism, yet still speak of “creative resistance in the logic of love” as a practice of justice, courage, and meaningful living. Language can be used to warp our imagination. How labels like “terrorism” and “self-defense” can distort moral vision, and why Munther believes reclaiming moral language is essential to the common good and the search for meaning and purpose. To stop loving is to lose our humanity. Munther’s insistence that true happiness and well-being require refusing to dehumanize even one’s enemies, guarding the heart from numbness, and insisting that we are created to love one another. Religious imagination has real-world implications. Theological worldviews often shape policy, war, and public imagination. Munthers asks, what might it mean for theology and culture to serve justice, mercy, and flourishing instead? A warning to our listeners—this episode contains descriptions of violence and graphic imagery. Please listen with care. ⁠ ⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠⁠ for abridged episode with Munther Isaac Thank you to our sponsors: Ka’Chava: Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://kachava.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ AquaTru: Go to  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠AquaTru.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use promo code NSE Piper and Leaf: Get a 10% off discount to the Advent Calendar by using my code 'NSE' at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠piperandleaf.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Nations U: Use code ENDEAVOR50 when you visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠Nationsu.edu/endeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠ CTA: Please donate today at ⁠⁠⁠MercyShips.org/podcast⁠⁠⁠ Omaha Steaks: Visit ⁠⁠⁠OmahaSteaks.com⁠⁠⁠ for 50% off sitewide during their Sizzle All the Way Sale. For an extra $35 off, use promo code FUN at checkout. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Jeff Chu. Change can come in the most unlikely places. For Jeff Chu, he found meaning and purpose in a pile of compost. At the peak of his journalism career — writing for Time and Fast Company, perched 29 floors above Manhattan — Jeff Chu stared out his office window and asked a question he could no longer avoid: “What is this all for?” That moment of vocational and existential reckoning set him on an unexpected journey — one that led to Princeton Theological Seminary, a plot of farmland known as the Farminary, and ultimately, to the compost pile that led him to write his book Good Soil: The Education of an Accidental Farmhand, which we discuss in today’s episode. Key Ideas: The long, honest work of vocational discernment: rage, anxiety, hard conversations with his husband, and the slow dawning realization that questions of calling and authentic living are often answered over years, not days. Life at the Farminary: learning theology with his hands in the dirt, discovering in the compost pile that what looks like waste and failure can, through community and time, become good soil for new life, faith, and hope. The practice of attention and slowing down—walking land after a snowfall, watching purple martins swirl over downtown Nashville, greeting a backyard mulberry tree—as a quiet path into wonder, gratitude, and the psychology of well-being in a distracted age. What gardening teaches about relinquishing control and embracing interdependence: we can plant and tend, but we cannot make a seed grow—an agrarian lens for habit formation, spiritual practices, and surrendering our illusion of power. Jeff’s journey of belonging as a gay Christian and Chinese American—learning to claim his story, honor his ancestors (and his grandmother’s fried rice), trust that he belongs to God, and extend that belonging outward through friendship, hospitality, and communal care. Subscribe, share this episode with a friend, and find more conversations on truth, beauty, goodness, and human flourishing at nosmallendeavor.com. ⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Jeff Chu⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: Ka’Chava: Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://kachava.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ AquaTru: Go to  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠AquaTru.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use promo code NSE Piper and Leaf: Get a 10% off discount to the Advent Calendar by using my code 'NSE' at ⁠⁠⁠piperandleaf.com⁠⁠⁠ Nations U: Use code ENDEAVOR50 when you visit ⁠⁠Nationsu.edu/endeavor⁠⁠ CTA: Please donate today at ⁠MercyShips.org/podcast⁠ Omaha Steaks: Visit ⁠OmahaSteaks.com⁠ for 50% off sitewide during their Sizzle All the Way Sale. And for an extra $35 off, use promo code FUN at checkout. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

AI is reshaping the music industry at a breakneck pace. AI musicians are topping charts, landing record deals, and attracting massive corporate investments. What does this mean for artists? How might this challenge us to think about embodiment, creativity, labor, and what it means to actually be human? When AI musicians start topping the music charts, we’re not just talking about technology. We’re deciding what makes art human, what makes labor fair, and what makes a person irreplaceable. AI musicians are breaking into the charts, labels are investing heavily in machine-generated artistry, and Christians, creators, and consumers are wrestling with what it means to open ourselves (and industries) to something that isn’t human. In this episode, Savannah and Lee unpack the rise of AI “artists” like Solomon Ray and Breaking Rust and ask how AI might transform our view of embodiment, truthfulness, and creativity. Listen to our playlist featuring real, human artists: Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/35w8gz81cYShmsf6T2hshQ?si=t0Ae38obT7q0SSfQfMuo6A Apple Music: https://music.apple.com/us/playlist/the-subtext-recs/pl.u-6mo44y8imzGlYq Things we mentioned in this episode: No Small Endeavor Podcast Recommended Episodes Lee's books Jesse Welles  Hillbilly Hymn by Nathan Evans Fox Savannah's music Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices