Leading Notes Podcast

Today’s world asks leaders to keep moving fast, yet good leadership needs room to stop and think. In this episode, Melissa speaks with Lauren Carnegie, Leadership Portfolio Director at the Committee for Geelong and Vice President of the community orchestra Awkwardstra, about leading at the intersection of systems thinking and human-centred practice.

Lauren explains why leaders need to see themselves as part of the system they want to change, and why the most useful question is often “how might my behaviour be contributing?” rather than “what does that person need to do differently?” She describes three levels of awareness: self-awareness, deep listening, and systems awareness. She also talks about “composting” (deciding what to let go of) and why calling timeout may be one of the most important things a leader can do right now.

At Awkwardstra, Lauren shows how these ideas work in a community orchestra. She talks about values that came from the members rather than the committee, how something as simple as choosing repertoire can affect whether a player walks in the door, and the tension between what funders ask for and what members value on a Monday night. She finishes with a story about being terrified, and then exhilarated, while learning to improvise on groove cello.

Key Topics Discussed

Reconnecting to what really matters, and moving from “what do you want to be?” to “who do you want to be?”

Combining systems-level thinking with human-centred leadership

Why “the system” isn’t something out there: we are the system

Collective intelligence, emergence, and finding the way forward together

The pace of modern work, and the case for calling timeout

“Composting”: what we stop doing so there’s room for new things

Moving away from locating problems in individuals

The gap between intention and impact

Three levels of awareness: self-awareness, deep listening, and systems awareness

The emotional side of working with complexity, including agency and accepting partial understanding

Investing in community leaders as an investment in community resilience

Building a welcoming culture for adult musicians returning to their instruments

Values that emerge from members and change as the organisation grows

How every decision in a community music group has ripple effects

Grant funding, mission drift, and valuing process over performance

Learning to trust yourself through improvisation and groove cello

Notable Quotes
“We also need to remember that we are the system, and that systems change involves something that’s within us and outside of us.” 

“The even harder question to ask is, how might my behaviour be contributing to that situation?” 

“We’ve become really good at responding to that context, but kind of less good at stopping long enough to actually decide whether we’re responding to the right things.”

“Community leaders are often the ones that spot what’s missing. And they hold invisible threads of connection in a community.” 

“It’s really easy to just assume that the way we see something is the reality, where in actual fact, it’s really just our story of the reality.” 

“What are we seeing in this community already? And what are people noticing? How do we name that? And then once you name it, you keep becoming it.” 

Resources Mentioned

Committee for Geelong

Awkwardstra community orchestra, Geelong

Groove Cello Academy and teacher Daniel Zellaney 

The window of tolerance

“Dance the Night” from the Barbie movie

“The Swan” (Saint-Saëns)

About Guest
Lauren Carnegie is the Leadership Portfolio Director at the Committee for Geelong, a nonpartisan voice for Geelong’s long-term future. She leads the Leaders for Geelong program, one of ten community leadership programs across Victoria that develop the next generation of regional leaders. Through her business, Learn and Lead, Lauren helps leaders and organisations reconnect with their purpose, their people, and the communities they serve. She also helps them handle complexity and design ways of working that are sustainable, human, and focused on the future. Lauren is Vice President of Awkwardstra, a community orchestra in Geelong. She is a classically trained cellist and has recently started playing groove cello.

Connect with Guest

LinkedIn

In this episode, Fiona joins Melissa to unpack why so many adults quietly believe they "can't sing", and what gets lost when we stop. They trace the individual, cultural, economic and technological forces that pushed singing out of everyday life, explore the idea of voice shame, and talk about why Fiona prefers to run singing circles rather than choirs. The conversation moves through the concept of singing as a "homecoming," the case for calling singing facilitators leaders, and practical ways to bring singing back into unexpected places—meetings, workplaces, aged care, and the school run.

Key Topics Discussed

Why singing dropped out of daily life: recorded music, smaller households, declining church attendance and hyper-individualism

Voice shame – how childhood criticism becomes a lifelong story about not being a "singer"

The difference between a choir and a singing circle, and why inclusion matters more than perfection

Singing as a "homecoming": reconnecting with a shared, primal human experience

Why talking is an inefficient tool for connection compared with singing together

Reframing "singing facilitator" as "singing leader," and the case for singing as a leadership behaviour

Practical ways to normalise singing: bringing it into workplaces, meetings, aged care and early childhood settings

The link between group singing and perinatal mental health

Notable Quotes
"We therefore neglect singing at our peril." – Fiona Maria

"Sing first, then talk, not the other way around." – Fiona Maria

Resources Mentioned

All Children Sing Until They're Told Not To by Fiona Maria

The Language of Leadership by Simon Lancaster (mentioned by Melissa)

About Guest
Fiona Maria is a singing facilitator, performer and author who lives and works on Gadigal land in Sydney, Australia. Through years of running singing circles in community and corporate settings, she became fascinated by why we've grown so uneasy about singing, and what it costs us individually and collectively to lose touch with it. Her debut book, All Children Sing Until They're Told Not To, explores the barriers—personal, cultural and economic—that stop people from thinking of themselves as singers, and makes the case for bringing singing back into everyday life.

Connect with Guest
Fiona's website

Episode Highlights

[00:00] Introducing Fiona Maria and her book

[00:57] When and why we got "weird" about singing

[02:26] The technological shift from home piano sing-alongs to recorded music

[07:08] Voice shame and the vicious cycle of hesitancy

[11:02] Singing circles vs choirs, and why the experience is the focus

[13:36] Singing as a "homecoming"

[19:23] Fiona's facilitation style: inclusion over perfection, safety as paramount

[22:09] Reframing "facilitator" as "leader"

[26:13] How to bring singing back into everyday contexts

[31:07] Group singing and perinatal mental health

[34:42] The magic wand question and a closing thought on connection

Melissa speaks with Enya Cai, General Manager of Creativity Australia, the national charity behind the With One Voice choir network. With 26 choirs across Australia and a mission to end loneliness through group singing, Creativity Australia sits at a fascinating intersection of community music, social inclusion, and organisational leadership.

Enya brings a rare perspective: a childhood spent in the Australian Girls Choir, a career spanning accounting, diversity and inclusion, government policy, and arts management, and a longstanding connection to Creativity Australia that began when she was a teenager volunteering with the organisation. In this conversation, she reflects on what community choir facilitators have in common with corporate leaders, how loneliness really shows up in the people who walk through choir doors, and why patience might be the most underrated skill in both music and life.

Key Topics Discussed

The With One Voice model: all-inclusive, all-abilities choirs focused on connection over musical perfection

The skills that transfer between corporate leadership and choir facilitation

How Enya uses vocal warm-ups and arts-based activities in corporate leadership training

Why "human-centred" leadership faces pushback, and what's underneath that resistance

How loneliness manifests in choir participants—and why most wouldn't identify as lonely

The slow, patient process of belonging: how the choir model meets people where they are

The realities and complications of choir facilitation as work, including emotional wellbeing and financial sustainability

Notable Quotes
"The point of our choirs is not to be perfect in a musical way—it's to create connections and community wellbeing through what we know is a proven way of creating beautiful, meaningful, strong connections, and that is through singing together."

"The skills required to lead in a corporate setting are just as useful, and in some cases essential, and already displayed in community music settings."

"Loneliness can be voices in your head that tell you that no one wants to speak to you. Part of our work is to recognise those people and welcome them in."

"Patience is one of the keys to my sustainability in this sector, but also one of the biggest lessons we can continue to learn through community music."

"With one wave of my magic wand, I would like for our society to value music makers—and for them to be recognised and paid appropriately for that."

Resources Mentioned

With One Voice choirs — find a choir near you or enquire about facilitator training

About Enya Cai
Enya Cai is the General Manager of Creativity Australia, the national charity behind the With One Voice choir network—26 all-inclusive, all-abilities choirs across Australia with a mission to end loneliness through group singing. Her connection to the organisation goes back to her teenage years, when she first volunteered with the then-fledgling choir program.

Since then, Enya has built a career that spans public policy in the Victorian government, diversity and inclusion at EY, freelance arts management, theatre producing, and leadership coaching for corporate clients. She holds a Bachelor of Commerce and Graduate Diploma of Chartered Accounting, and brings that financial and strategic acumen to the arts sector with genuine purpose. Outside of work, she loves discovering new restaurants and spending time with her cat, Jelly.

Connect with Enya Cai

Creativity Australia: creativityaustralia.org.au

With One Voice choirs: withonevoice.org.au

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/enyacai/

Episode Highlights

00:01:13 — What Creativity Australia does and the With One Voice mission to end loneliness

02:53 — Enya's journey: from the Australian Girls Choir to accounting, diversity and inclusion, government, and back to the arts

07:35 — The shared skills of corporate leaders and choir facilitators

09:47 — Pushback on human-centred leadership, and what's really behind the resistance

11:31 — How Enya starts leadership training: self-reflection first

13:33 — Using vocal warm-ups and arts-based play in corporate training sessions

16:24 — Why workplaces feel so constraining—physically and spiritually

19:13 — Singing groups as workplaces: navigating the real complexities of facilitation

19:39 — How loneliness actually shows up in choir participants

22:19 — A story of slow, patient transformation: from sitting at the back of the room to performing on stage

26:02 — How to join a With One Voice choir or train as a facilitator

For Graham Sattler, being a musical inclusion advocate means building a life's work around a single conviction: that music is the activity with the fewest impediments to participation. In this episode, Melissa talks with Graham about the journey that took him from the opera stage and the orchestral trombone section to the heart of community music practice, and the moment in Orange, New South Wales, that crystallised everything.

Graham shares what he found when his Churchill Fellowship took him across eight countries investigating best-practice community music leadership training, and why the musicians he met were so strikingly clear about the why, how, and what of their work. He reflects on confidence, courage, and intrinsic motivation as essential leadership qualities; on generosity, compassion, and selflessness as the values that underpin effective practice; and on what happens to a community when leadership changes and those qualities disappear.

The conversation also turns to orchestras — Graham is currently CEO of the Christchurch Symphony Orchestra — and what it takes for professional performance organisations to engage authentically with community, rather than as a funding exercise. Honest, thoughtful, and full of hard-won insight, this is a conversation about what it really means to lead music that matters.

Key Topics Discussed

What "musical inclusion advocate" means and where that framing came from

Music as the most accessible participatory activity — and how to respond when that idea is challenged

The move from Sydney to Orange, NSW, and the moment community music came into sharp focus

The training gap in community music leadership across Australia and the Asia-Pacific

What Graham observed in leadership training programs across the US, Canada, Ireland, Scotland, England, Norway, Portugal, and Armenia

Confidence, courage, and intrinsic motivation as pillars of effective community music leadership

The values common to the best community music leaders: generosity, compassion, and selflessness

What happens to a community when leadership changes — and why training matters

Professional orchestras and community engagement: honest assessment of where the sector is and where it falls short

Community music as 60% of the Christchurch Symphony Orchestra's organisational output

Notable Quotes
"Music is the most accessible group activity that human beings can engage in — it has the fewest impediments to participation."

"Whatever they bring into the room is enough. Human beings are profoundly and intrinsically musical, and music is, similarly, profoundly human."

"I discovered what it was to be answerable to, responsible to, identifiable community — and that's when it really crystallised."

"I hadn't teased courage out of confidence before — but they are quite different things."

"When those qualities aren't there, people notice. People aren't stupid. They can spot a phony."

About Graham Sattler
Graham Sattler is an Australian musician, educator, and orchestra CEO whose career has taken him from the opera stage to the conductor's podium to the heart of community music practice. He has worked as a trombonist and singer with the Australian Opera, as a conductor of orchestras and choirs across Australia and internationally, and spent over a decade as director of regional conservatoriums in New South Wales — leading music programs with aged, disability, and at-risk youth communities. He holds a PhD in Music Education, a Master of Performance (Conducting), and a Graduate Certificate in the Psychology of Risk. In 2019, Graham was awarded a Churchill Fellowship to investigate best-practice community music leadership training programs across eight countries. He is currently CEO of the Christchurch Symphony Orchestra in Aotearoa New Zealand, where community engagement makes up 60% of the organisation's output.

Connect with Graham
LinkedIn

Christchurch Symphony Orchestra

Episode Highlights

00:01:27 — What "musical inclusion advocate" means, and how Graham arrived at that description

00:03:55 — Responding to the challenge: is music really the most accessible activity?

00:05:31 — Why the word "made" is the alarm bell for everything community music stands against

00:08:14 — The move to Orange, NSW, and the moment inclusion became central

00:13:25 — Why the leadership training gap matters — and what's lost when leadership changes

00:16:24 — What confidence actually looks like in community music leadership

00:21:19 — Confidence versus courage: two different things

00:23:09 — Whatever they bring into the room is enough

00:30:18 — The common values of effective community music leaders: generosity, compassion, selflessness

00:33:04 — Orchestras and community: an honest assessment

00:40:08 — The three closing questions: human connection, one song to unite a room, and a magic wand

Joel Carnegie—conductor, broadcaster, and storyteller—talks about Awkwardstra Geelong, a community orchestra that is quietly doing some of the most important social work in the business.

Joel shares how he came to Awkwardstra after a demanding period in his professional life, and why the experience fundamentally changed how he thinks about music and leadership. This episode is a masterclass in what inclusive, values-driven music-making can look like in practice.

Joel also reflects on his background as a storyteller and how narrative — including the music itself — can convey the value of community music in ways statistics simply can't. Drawing on his training in acting methods and voice work, he offers a thoughtful account of what it means to lead from the podium with empathy, clarity, and a willingness to sit with uncertainty.

This conversation is full of practical wisdom and genuine inspiration.

Key Topics Discussed

The origins of Awkwardstra Geelong and Joel's path to becoming its conductor

What radical inclusivity looks like in a community orchestra and the practical structures that support it

Managing a wide range of skill levels and experience: music selection, coaching programs, and section support

The "Awky Pass" and how the collective supports individual members facing financial barriers

The tension between musical quality and inclusivity and why it can be a generative rather than a destructive tension

The role of story in making the case for community music, including a commissioned piece built from players' own stories

How acting training and voice work inform Joel's practice as a conductor and ensemble leader

Empathy, clarity, and openness as core qualities in music leadership

What music leadership has to offer organisational leadership more broadly

Advice for young musicians interested in community music

Notable Quotes
"Making music for the joy of it, for creating connections across the community, and for offering people an opportunity to extend themselves — that's really what we're doing here."

"The podium never lies. There's no one else you can really be except yourself up there."

"We start every rehearsal by recognising that we've all had whatever happened during the day, and we take a moment to arrive into the space — intentionally — and remember that we're in physical bodies playing instruments that are physical."

"Music allows us to feel. And when we can feel, we can connect with other people. We're in the business of feeling-making and moment-making."

"People getting together and playing music is eternal. And those who are providing the structure for that to happen are creating guardrails and forms of resilience and resistance."

"Just because it's not happening in Sydney or Melbourne doesn't mean it is not of value."

Resources Mentioned

Awkwardstra Geelong — community orchestra based in Geelong, VIC

Kym Dillon — composer, pianist, and arranger who created a piece for Awkwardstra based on players' stories; performing with the orchestra again at the Geelong Arts Centre, 17 October 2026

Pako Festa (Pakington Street Festival) — Geelong's largest street festival; Awkwardstra performed as a flash mob opening act

Ingrid Martin — Joel's conducting coach

ABC Classic Evenings — national radio program hosted by Joel Carnegie

About Guest
Joel Carnegie is a conductor, performer, and storyteller whose work spans live music, broadcasting, and community engagement. Each weeknight he hosts the national Evenings program on ABC Classic, and his storytelling work has earned recognition at the New York Festivals International Radio Awards and The Whickers, a prestigious international award for audio storytelling.

From 2015 to 2024, Joel was Founder and Head of Storytelling at The Space Company, where he led the creation of music-rich podcasts, screen productions, and live stage works — including the nationally touring double bill Stardust + The Mission, which involved over 200 local musicians across 45 cities. A graduate of the Australia Council's Future Leaders program, he holds degrees from the University of Melbourne, Swinburne, and Deakin, with performance training in Graz, Austria.

Joel is now the Conductor of Awkwardstra Geelong, a community orchestra built on a simple but radical idea: that making music together should be open to everyone.

Connect with Guest
https://www.joelcarnegie.com/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/joelcarnegie/

Episode Highlights
[00:01:47] How Awkwardstra began — and why Joel joined
[00:05:37] The philosophy behind the name and what inclusivity looks like in the rehearsal room
[00:14:57] Removing barriers: the Awky Pass, coaching programs, and community support
[00:18:09] Musical quality vs. inclusivity — a generative tension
[00:22:19] The power of story in community music, and commissioning Kim Dillon
[00:28:13] Why Joel pursued acting methods and voice training — and how they shape his leadership
[00:32:24] The most important qualities in a music leader: empathy, openness, clarity
[00:36:28] What music leadership offers that other leadership models don't
[00:39:23] Advice for young musicians