Leading Notes Podcast

This episode features Liz Lecoanet, an international vocal specialist who's pioneering the integration of singing into healthcare and workplace wellbeing. As the first wellbeing choral conductor employed by New South Wales Health in Australia, Liz shares her passionate mission to make singing as prescribable as exercise, revealing how she co-founded "Singing for Health" with GP Dr Isabel Hansen, a singing group for medical professionals.

Liz's journey from opera stages in London and New York to hospital wards reveals a profound shift: the most powerful music happens when we stop trying to "get it right" and start listening.

This conversation explores the essential balance between doing and being, the difference between community music and performance, and why Liz is convinced that singing is an essential service. Liz's infectious energy and unwavering conviction that singing is a human right make this a must-listen for anyone interested in the intersection of arts, health, and social change.

Topics Discussed

The birth of Singing for Health: How a frustrated conversation about people being told they "can't sing" led to a partnership between music and medicine

Prescribing singing like exercise: The campaign to have GPs prescribe singing as a health intervention

Creating safe spaces for vulnerability: Why healthcare workers particularly need permission to "get it wrong"

The yin-yang of modern life: How singing provides essential balance to our "tick-box" culture

Opera training meets community practice: Navigating the transition from perfectionism to presence

Embodied leadership: How physical presence and authentic passion create permission for others

Medical conferences and boardrooms: Strategies for convincing sceptics through experience

The social movement: Positioning arts and health as fundamental rather than supplementary

Indigenous wisdom: Reconnecting with singing as inherent human expression

Notable Quotes
"I just want to go into a court of law and prove what this does to somebody when you tell them that they can't sing... what it does to your immune system, what it does to your relationships, how that changes your workplace... if you tell someone they don't have a voice, what that does to their life, and how you are robbing them of being a human being."

"Everybody's breathing in the room, so they qualify as a singer, because they're breathing."

"You don't need to be a professional soccer player to take a walk around the block and get some exercise. That's what I'm talking about in terms of singing."

"The world of light, the world of doing... we're very busy yang orientated, light people. But very seldom do we actually close our eyes and just listen."

"When people discover [their voice], they go from being a waitress to a manager in their café, or they get out of a crappy relationship, they ask their boss for a raise."

"These are health workers that were burnt out before COVID, and they came to choir every week online to be muted. If that doesn't tell anyone that's an essential service, what the hell does?"

"We need that element. It's missing from some people's lives. And it's got to happen if humanity is going to rise up."

"Let's not try and make this into anything, let's just trust our humanity, and trust the song, and trust that it will be something."

About Liz
Liz Lecoanet is an international vocal specialist and choir conductor who bridges the worlds of professional performance and community wellbeing. With training from London's opera houses and performance experience in New York, she brings a unique perspective to participatory music-making. As the first wellbeing choral conductor employed by New South Wales Health, she co-founded the Singing for Health programme with Dr Isabel Hansen, pioneering the integration of singing into healthcare settings.

Liz received the Hidden Hero of Sydney Award from the City of Sydney in 2014 for conducting Creativity Australia's With One Voice Choir, which grew to over 180 members and became the subject of the award-winning documentary "Sing Your Little Heart Out." She has worked internationally, including with Beth Israel Hospital in New York using sound for pain management, and continues to present at medical conferences on the health benefits of singing.

Today, Liz conducts multiple community choirs across Sydney, brings singing into workplaces to nurture connection and creativity, and works tirelessly—often voluntarily—to establish singing as a prescribable health intervention in Australia. Her approach emphasises listening over performing, presence over perfection, and the fundamental human right to use one's voice.

Connect with Liz
https://lizlecoanet.com/

Episode Highlights
[00:02:17] Liz's passionate declaration about "proving in court" what denying someone's voice does to their life sets the tone for the entire conversation

[00:09:21] The art of holding space for healthcare workers who desperately need permission to make mistakes

[00:12:01] How Liz had to unlearn perfectionism

[00:23:33] The yin-yang philosophy: Why the realm of sound and listening is the essential remedy to modern life

[00:31:47] Getting GPs singing at an international conference—the power of experiential proof

[00:39:14] "Can't Help Falling in Love" as the perfect stranger-uniting song: accessible range, no politics or religion

[00:41:27] Liz's magic wand wish: Singing spaces as normal as GP visits, supported by government, accessible to all

Call to Action
If you're inspired by Liz's mission to make singing a prescribable health intervention, consider:

Finding or starting a community singing group in your area

Supporting the social prescribing movement in Australia

Sharing this episode with healthcare professionals and policymakers

Remembering that if you're breathing, you qualify as a singer

Join the social movement to make music that matters—because as Liz reminds us, singing before speaking is our human heritage, and reclaiming our voices is essential for humanity to rise above the challenges of modern life.

In this episode, Melissa speaks with Dr Francis Yapp, Senior Lecturer and Academic Director of the School of Music at the University of Canterbury in Christchurch, New Zealand. They explore the world of community music and its place in tertiary education. Francis shares his journey from classical training to community music leadership, discusses the innovative community music pathway at Canterbury, and addresses the ongoing debate about institutionalising grassroots musical practices.

Key Topics Discussed

Defining community music - Exploring what community music means and how it differs from traditional music education approaches

Francis's journey to community music - From classical cellist to community music leader, advocate, and educator

The University of Canterbury's community music pathway - Origins, curriculum, and graduate outcomes of this innovative programme

Teaching philosophy - How group singing and cello teaching experiences shape Francis's pedagogical approach

The institutionalisation debate - Addressing concerns about bringing grassroots community music practices into academic settings

Māori musical practices - Discussion of waiata, kapa haka, and other traditional forms as examples of community music

Māori terms used in this episode:

Waiata - Māori songs that serve various cultural purposes and are central to Māori identity

Kapa haka - Traditional Māori performing arts including singing, dancing, and chanting

Marae - A communal and sacred meeting ground in Māori culture where formal greetings and discussions take place

Taonga puoro - Traditional Māori musical instruments, considered cultural treasures

Kura Kaupapa Māori - Māori-language immersion schools operating under Māori custom and using Māori as the medium of instruction

Te Reo Māori - The Māori language

Connect with Guest

University of Canterbury School of Music

Connect with Francis on LinkedIn

Listen to Salve Regina

In this episode, Melissa speaks with Phoene Cave, a registered music therapist, creative project manager, singer, trainer, and reflective practice supervisor who has spent two decades building social connections through music in some of the most challenging settings imaginable.

From working with female offenders in high-security prisons to pioneering Singing for Lung Health programs, Phoene brings a unique perspective on how music can create meaningful change. She's trained over 350 facilitators globally and is now bringing creative health toolkits to nursing students, helping healthcare workers discover the power of creativity for both self-care and patient care.

Phoene's philosophy of "creative compassionate disruption" informs everything she does, from her music therapy practice to her work with community musicians. In this conversation, she shares insights on establishing trust and safety, the importance of supervision and reflective practice, and why she believes compassion and empathy need to be balanced with healthy boundaries to prevent burnout.

Key Topics Discussed
Singing for Lung Health Training

How Phoene became a world specialist through learning on the job at Royal Brompton Hospital (2007)

The evolution from in-person to online training during the pandemic

Training over 350 facilitators globally, including respiratory nurses and physiotherapists

The importance of embodied practice and understanding respiratory issues

Music Therapy vs Community Music

The subtle distinctions between working as a music therapist and a community musician

How both can achieve similar outcomes, but with different levels of articulation and awareness

The power of music to shift narratives and create alternative experiences

Creative Health Training for Healthcare Workers

Providing creative health toolkits to nursing students at Roehampton University

The overwhelming soundscapes in hospitals and their impact on staff wellbeing

Teaching self-care through breath, movement, creative writing, and music

How creativity provides agency and encourages thinking outside the box

Supervision and Reflective Practice

Why supervision is vital for community musicians, especially those in challenging settings

The difference between music therapy supervision and reflective practice for community musicians

Compassion fatigue and the importance of boundaries

Values and Approach

Safety, trust, love, and presence as starting points with any group

The importance of physical space and "resonance" - being aware 360 degrees

Creative compassionate disruption as a guiding philosophy

Working in your "back body" - listening openly rather than being overly focused

Personal Journey

Training as a jazz improviser at Goldsmiths and overcoming challenges as a female vocalist

Multiple music therapy trainings creating an unusual and valuable perspective

The transition from performer to facilitator and finding fulfilment in giving others a voice

Discovering neurodivergence later in life

About Guest
Phoene Cave is a registered music therapist, creative project manager, singer, trainer, and reflective practice supervisor in the creative health field. She has spent two decades working with diverse communities in nurseries, schools, further and higher education, concert halls, social housing, care homes, hospitals, and a detention centre and prison.

Phoene is recognised as a world specialist in Singing for Lung Health, having trained over 350 facilitators globally since 2015. Her work bridges the worlds of music therapy, community music, and healthcare, bringing creative approaches to both patient care and healthcare worker wellbeing.

Her philosophy of "creative compassionate disruption" informs all her work, from facilitating sessions in challenging environments to training the next generation of creative health practitioners. She is currently working on recording an album revisiting songs from her earlier career as a jazz vocalist.

Connect with Guest

Website: www.phoenecave.co.uk

The Transit Collective: https://transitcollective.org/

Episode Highlights
[00:02:00] - The journey to becoming a Singing for Lung Health specialist - from answering an advertisement to training 350 facilitators globally

[00:06:15] - Learning on the job: the benefits and challenges of building the plane while flying it

[00:10:43] - What's the difference between music therapy and community music? A nuanced exploration

[00:15:18] - Establishing trust and safety: the starting point with any group, from prisoners to patients

[00:25:08] - Creative Health Toolkits for nursing students: transforming healthcare through creativity

[00:30:09] - The flow-on benefits when healthcare workers have creative tools for self-care

[00:35:04] - What is supervision in music therapy and why it matters for community musicians

[00:43:56] - Compassion fatigue: the danger of being a caring empath without boundaries

[00:46:25] - Why Phoene doesn't miss performing on stage (but is recording an album)

[00:49:50] - Advice to her 18-year-old self: "You have ADHD, and you're actually fine"

In this special solo episode, Melissa announces the publication of her new book, "Making Music That Matters: Positive Music Leadership for Social Health". She explores how musicians can address the crisis of social connection through community music-making, offering evidence-based frameworks for building meaningful careers whilst fostering social health and wellbeing.

"This book is my attempt to bridge two realities—to show that there's a way to have a fulfilling, sustainable career in music whilst also addressing one of the most pressing challenges of our time: the loss of human connection."

Endorsements
Professor Kim S. Cameron (University of Michigan)
"This wonderfully creative book shows how music transforms lives, teams, organizations, and society."

Dr Dave Camlin (Trinity Laban, UK)
"An essential read for emerging music leaders to help make sense of the complex and exciting traditions of socially transformational music making."

Professor Alexandra Lamont (University of Queensland)
"Well-researched and theoretically-grounded ... explores the less-well studied worlds of those who lead and facilitate democratic participatory music making."

Book Details
Title: Making Music That Matters: Positive Music Leadership for Social Health
Author: Melissa Forbes
Publisher: Routledge
Publication Date: 22 October 2025

ISBN Information:

Paperback: 9781032730660

Hardback: 9781032724157

eBook: 9781003426509

Singing as Collective Care: Trauma-Informed Choral Leadership with Joanna Brooke
In this episode, Melissa speaks with choral conductor and soprano Joanna Brooke about her unique approach to music-making that sits at the intersection of musical excellence and trauma-informed care. Joanna shares how she creates spaces where people can reconnect with their birthright to sing, moving beyond Western cultural barriers of musical elitism to foster genuine human connection through voice.

Drawing on her background in social work and over 10 years of choral conducting experience, Joanna discusses her innovative practice of reclaiming improvisation, shifting from production-focused to expression-centered music-making, and developing what she calls "singing as collective care" - the focus of her new PhD at the University of Melbourne.

Key Topics Discussed
Confronting Musical Elitism

How Western contexts create feelings of unworthiness around singing

The concept of singing as a birthright versus attachment to skill and ability

Creating spaces for people to shed learned limitations and reconnect with organic vocal expression

Trauma-Informed Musical Practice

Setting up spaces with trauma-informed principles without pathologizing the experience

The importance of choice, safety, and never requiring solo participation

Viewing disconnection from singing as trauma work requiring restoration

Reclaiming Improvisation

Moving beyond jazz and classical virtuosity concepts to experimental, free-form singing

Using musical motifs and compositional structures as containers for safe exploration

The role of power-sharing and authentic participation by musical leaders

From Production to Expression

Shifting focus from audience-oriented outcomes to present-moment experience

Balancing expression-centered goals with aesthetically pleasing results

The trauma-informed importance of ensuring beautiful collective sound

Feminine Leadership in Music

Challenging masculine conducting stereotypes of control and certainty

Exploring communal, open, fluid, and emotional leadership approaches

The gendered aspects of musical leadership and ethics of care

Arts and Health Integration

Bridging the gap between artistic practice and therapeutic outcomes

The distinction between art-making and therapy while acknowledging therapeutic benefits

Creating dialogue between arts and health practitioners

About Joanna
Joanna Brooke is a choral conductor and soprano based in Melbourne with over 10 years of experience leading choirs. She currently serves as musical director of the Monash University Choral Society and has worked as artistic director of the Jubilate Singers and with Gondwana Choirs.

With training in social work, Joanna's unique practice sits at the intersection of music and trauma-informed care. She leads research into trauma-informed creative arts interventions and presents at arts health conferences and events. In 2025, she commenced a PhD at the University of Melbourne exploring "singing as collective care."

Connect with Joanna
Find Joanna on LinkedIn