Leading Notes Podcast

Coming to our senses: How creativity helps us trust our own experience, with Dr Carla van Laar
Show Notes
In this episode, I speak with Dr. Carla Van Laar, a creative and experiential therapist, painter, and passionate advocate for the creative revolution in mental health and wellbeing. With over 30 years' experience using the arts for health and wellbeing, Carla is the founding director of the Creative Mental Health Forum and convener of the Psychotherapy and Counselling Federation of Australia's (PACFA) College of Creative and Experiential Therapies.

Carla shares her compelling vision for how creativity can act as a reality check in a world that constantly asks us to outsource our sense of what's real. From her early childhood discovery of perspective in art through to her current advocacy work at a national level, Carla's journey illuminates why creative engagement is essential—not peripheral—to mental health and social wellbeing.

The conversation explores the disconnect between mounting evidence for creative arts therapies and their limited implementation in Australia's health system, the need for a rethink of biomedical models to better accommdate creative therapies, and what happens when we create accessible spaces where people can connect through the arts.

Key Topics Discussed
Creativity as a Reality Check

How creativity restores trust in first-hand experiencing in a society that asks us to outsource our sense of reality

The parallel between gaslighting dynamics and systemic forces that undermine our perception

How creative practice brings us into the present moment and to our senses—sight, touch, hearing, taste, and scent

Creative Flow States and Wellbeing

Research on the benefits of engaging in creative practice for as little as 20 minutes

How flow states create a sense of timelessness, reduce stress, improve sleep, and help us meet life's challenges

Navigating obstacles to creativity: inner critics, self-judgement, attachment to product over process

Personal Journey to Creative Arts Therapy

How learning about perspective as a young child changed Carla's worldview

Using creative practice to navigate uncertainty and make sense of the world through her own lenses

The convergence of fine arts, community arts practice, and creative arts therapy

Systemic Advocacy and Reform

Strategic positioning of creative arts therapies within the broader psychotherapy and counselling framework

The 2020 push during COVID to ensure creative therapists were part of mental health system reforms

Inclusion in national standards for the psychotherapy and counselling workforce

The Evidence Gap and Implementation Challenges

Why the question "does it work?" is now outdated—World Health Organisation and global health bodies have established the benefits

Creative engagement addresses isolation and loneliness, underlying causes of depression and mental ill-health

The challenge of measuring relational, context-responsive practices using biomedical models

Looking at return on investment differently: reduced hospital admissions, reduced burden on mental health services, suicide prevention

Rethinking Service Delivery Models

The limitations of applying one-hour-a-week biomedical models to creative therapies

Carla's vision for community creative health hubs where people can spend time, connect, participate, and be audiences

The story of the Inverlock Pop-Up Art Co: what happens when creative spaces become accessible

The gap between GP mental health care plans and accessible support

Shifting Worldviews

Why awareness-raising alone isn't enough—people need embodied experience to understand the benefits

The 85-year-old veteran who went from "what's this mumbo jumbo?" to "this creative stuff actually helps me" in 12 months

Different forms of evidence: the persistence of creative and cultural practices over millennia as proof of efficacy

The importance of policy makers and health professionals having their own creative experiences

Notable Quotes
"Creativity itself can and does restore our trust in first-hand experiencing in a world that keeps asking us to outsource our sense of reality."

"Our senses—whichever ones we love the most—can all be sources of wonderful information about the world around us. And they are the original source for us of our ways of knowing and navigating the world. Creativity in that way isn't seen as an escape from reality, it can actually be a reality check."

"Engaging in a creative practice of any form really brings us into the here and now. We have to be present, because that's where it's happening, right here, right now."

"Connection is the most important thing. We need connection, and in fact, us, like every other living thing, we gravitate towards connection. Everything is connected, everything wants to be connected. We're no different. We need connection to thrive."

"Tell me, and I'll forget. Show me, and I might remember, but involve me and I'll understand. When people experience for themselves the benefit, then that's the best evidence that a person can have—knowing that it's good for them."

"Look at our evidence. It's the evidence of continuing practice over millennia. It's the evidence that these things persist and continue, and people keep doing them, because people for that long have known that they work."

"What if there was a person who took that help seeker and actually literally walked across the road to a community creative hub, and introduced them to a couple of people there? That's what we're missing."

"I would wave my magic wand, and boom, inside or beside and alongside and co-located with every GP practice, library, community hub, there would be a community creative hub for every member of Australia's communities."

Resources Mentioned
Carla's Publications

Seeing Her Stories – Explores making women's unseen stories visible through art and includes findings on how creativity brings us to our senses

Organisations and Initiatives

Creative Mental Health Forum (founded by Carla)

PACFA (Psychotherapy and Counselling Federation of Australia) – College of Creative and Experiential Therapies

ACARTA (Australian Creative Arts Therapy Association) – founded by Carla and colleagues in 1999

Inverlock Pop-Up Art Co – community arts initiative

Research and Policy

World Health Organisation evidence on benefits of creative engagement

VicHealth advocacy for creative engagement

Creative Australia's work on creative engagement for communities

National standards for the psychotherapy and counselling workforce (released 2024)

About Dr. Carla Van Laar
Dr. Carla Van Laar is a creative and experiential therapist, painter, and passionate advocate for the creative revolution in mental health and wellbeing. With over 30 years' experience using the arts for health and wellbeing in community organisations, justice, health, and education settings, Carla has dedicated her career to making creative therapeutic practices more accessible and embedded in Australia's mental health system.

As the founding director of the Creative Mental Health Forum and convener of the Psychotherapy and Counselling Federation of Australia's (PACFA) College of Creative and Experiential Therapies, Carla works at both grassroots and systemic levels to advocate for the profession. Her advocacy work spans decades, including founding the Australian Creative Arts Therapy Association (ACARTA) in 1999 as its inaugural president.

Carla currently lives and works on Boonwaring country in Inverloch, where she runs a welcoming art studio and creative therapies practice, working with NDIS participants, war veterans, and families affected by violence. Her work is grounded in the philosophy that arts-based practices are essential for healing our troubled world.

She has authored two books, including Seeing Her Stories, which explores making women's unseen stories visible through art. Known for community arts initiatives like the Inverloch Pop-Up Art Co, Carla insists on being part of a creative revolution where art re-embodies lived experience, brings us to our senses, and serves as an agent of social change.

Connect Carla 

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/carlavanlaar/

Website: https://carlavanlaar.com/

Episode Highlights
[00:02] Introduction to Dr. Carla Van Laar and her work in creative arts therapy

[01:51] Why we need to be brought back to our senses and how creativity helps

[02:50] The gaslighting boss metaphor: how systems undermine our perception of reality

[04:39] The biomedical model and the mind-body split

[05:16] Research findings: creativity brings us to our senses and into the present moment

[08:04] Ancient cultural practices that privileged social and emotional health

[08:46] Creative flow states: what happens when we engage for 20 minutes or more

[09:39] Navigating obstacles to creativity: inner critics and self-judgement

[12:02] Carla's journey into creative arts therapy

[13:03] How learning perspective as a young child changed her worldview

[15:52] Systemic advocacy work and the founding of ACARTA in 1999

[17:07] COVID and the push for mental health system reform

[18:03] Positioning creative arts therapies within PACFA's framework

[19:02] Working intermodally: visual arts, mindfulness, embodiment, and drama

[20:00] Inclusion in national standards for psychotherapy and counselling

[22:30] The disconnect between evidence and implementation

[23:01] The question "does it work?" is now outdated

[24:11] How creative engagement addresses isolation and loneliness

[25:25] Return on investment: reducing burden on health systems

[27:08] Why biomedical measurement methods don't fit relational practices

[28:08] The problem with one-hour-a-week creative therapy models

[28:26] Vision for community creative health hubs

[29:09] The challenge of patient perception: when GPs prescribe the arts

[30:00] The Parkinson's symposium experience: the unwavering belief in biomedical models

[31:01] The inherited systems we've internalized since birth

[31:45] Deferring our power to experts versus recognizing our own agency

[32:19] Working with resistant participants: the 85-year-old veteran's journey

[33:06] "Involve me and I'll understand": experience as the best evidence

[34:34] The need for policy makers to have embodied creative experiences

[35:12] Different views of evidence: persistence of practice over millennia

[36:04] Story of transformation: the Inverloch Pop-Up Art Co

[37:02] From empty accountant's office to thriving creative hub in 8 weeks

[37:48] 30 local artists emerged from the community

[38:42] Workshops flourished: juggling, ukulele, singing, meditation, life drawing

[39:02] Why the pop-up wasn't sustainable as an individual enterprise

[40:03] What's missing: accessible community creative spaces

[40:34] The mental health care plan scenario: 6-12 month waitlists when people are in crisis

[41:05] Imagining a different response: walking someone to a creative hub

[42:02] Final questions: the most important lesson about human connection

[42:34] Connection is what every living thing gravitates toward

[42:55] One song to bring randoms together: Bob Marley's "One Love" (with medley including "What the World Needs Now" and "All You Need Is Love")

[43:54] Magic wand wish: a community creative hub co-located with every GP practice and library

[44:34] Closing remarks

This episode features Liz Lecoanet, an international vocal specialist who's pioneering the integration of singing into healthcare and workplace wellbeing. As the first wellbeing choral conductor employed by New South Wales Health in Australia, Liz shares her passionate mission to make singing as prescribable as exercise, revealing how she co-founded "Singing for Health" with GP Dr Isabel Hansen, a singing group for medical professionals.

Liz's journey from opera stages in London and New York to hospital wards reveals a profound shift: the most powerful music happens when we stop trying to "get it right" and start listening.

This conversation explores the essential balance between doing and being, the difference between community music and performance, and why Liz is convinced that singing is an essential service. Liz's infectious energy and unwavering conviction that singing is a human right make this a must-listen for anyone interested in the intersection of arts, health, and social change.

Topics Discussed

The birth of Singing for Health: How a frustrated conversation about people being told they "can't sing" led to a partnership between music and medicine

Prescribing singing like exercise: The campaign to have GPs prescribe singing as a health intervention

Creating safe spaces for vulnerability: Why healthcare workers particularly need permission to "get it wrong"

The yin-yang of modern life: How singing provides essential balance to our "tick-box" culture

Opera training meets community practice: Navigating the transition from perfectionism to presence

Embodied leadership: How physical presence and authentic passion create permission for others

Medical conferences and boardrooms: Strategies for convincing sceptics through experience

The social movement: Positioning arts and health as fundamental rather than supplementary

Indigenous wisdom: Reconnecting with singing as inherent human expression

Notable Quotes
"I just want to go into a court of law and prove what this does to somebody when you tell them that they can't sing... what it does to your immune system, what it does to your relationships, how that changes your workplace... if you tell someone they don't have a voice, what that does to their life, and how you are robbing them of being a human being."

"Everybody's breathing in the room, so they qualify as a singer, because they're breathing."

"You don't need to be a professional soccer player to take a walk around the block and get some exercise. That's what I'm talking about in terms of singing."

"The world of light, the world of doing... we're very busy yang orientated, light people. But very seldom do we actually close our eyes and just listen."

"When people discover [their voice], they go from being a waitress to a manager in their café, or they get out of a crappy relationship, they ask their boss for a raise."

"These are health workers that were burnt out before COVID, and they came to choir every week online to be muted. If that doesn't tell anyone that's an essential service, what the hell does?"

"We need that element. It's missing from some people's lives. And it's got to happen if humanity is going to rise up."

"Let's not try and make this into anything, let's just trust our humanity, and trust the song, and trust that it will be something."

About Liz
Liz Lecoanet is an international vocal specialist and choir conductor who bridges the worlds of professional performance and community wellbeing. With training from London's opera houses and performance experience in New York, she brings a unique perspective to participatory music-making. As the first wellbeing choral conductor employed by New South Wales Health, she co-founded the Singing for Health programme with Dr Isabel Hansen, pioneering the integration of singing into healthcare settings.

Liz received the Hidden Hero of Sydney Award from the City of Sydney in 2014 for conducting Creativity Australia's With One Voice Choir, which grew to over 180 members and became the subject of the award-winning documentary "Sing Your Little Heart Out." She has worked internationally, including with Beth Israel Hospital in New York using sound for pain management, and continues to present at medical conferences on the health benefits of singing.

Today, Liz conducts multiple community choirs across Sydney, brings singing into workplaces to nurture connection and creativity, and works tirelessly—often voluntarily—to establish singing as a prescribable health intervention in Australia. Her approach emphasises listening over performing, presence over perfection, and the fundamental human right to use one's voice.

Connect with Liz
https://lizlecoanet.com/

Episode Highlights
[00:02:17] Liz's passionate declaration about "proving in court" what denying someone's voice does to their life sets the tone for the entire conversation

[00:09:21] The art of holding space for healthcare workers who desperately need permission to make mistakes

[00:12:01] How Liz had to unlearn perfectionism

[00:23:33] The yin-yang philosophy: Why the realm of sound and listening is the essential remedy to modern life

[00:31:47] Getting GPs singing at an international conference—the power of experiential proof

[00:39:14] "Can't Help Falling in Love" as the perfect stranger-uniting song: accessible range, no politics or religion

[00:41:27] Liz's magic wand wish: Singing spaces as normal as GP visits, supported by government, accessible to all

Call to Action
If you're inspired by Liz's mission to make singing a prescribable health intervention, consider:

Finding or starting a community singing group in your area

Supporting the social prescribing movement in Australia

Sharing this episode with healthcare professionals and policymakers

Remembering that if you're breathing, you qualify as a singer

Join the social movement to make music that matters—because as Liz reminds us, singing before speaking is our human heritage, and reclaiming our voices is essential for humanity to rise above the challenges of modern life.

In this episode, Melissa speaks with Dr Francis Yapp, Senior Lecturer and Academic Director of the School of Music at the University of Canterbury in Christchurch, New Zealand. They explore the world of community music and its place in tertiary education. Francis shares his journey from classical training to community music leadership, discusses the innovative community music pathway at Canterbury, and addresses the ongoing debate about institutionalising grassroots musical practices.

Key Topics Discussed

Defining community music - Exploring what community music means and how it differs from traditional music education approaches

Francis's journey to community music - From classical cellist to community music leader, advocate, and educator

The University of Canterbury's community music pathway - Origins, curriculum, and graduate outcomes of this innovative programme

Teaching philosophy - How group singing and cello teaching experiences shape Francis's pedagogical approach

The institutionalisation debate - Addressing concerns about bringing grassroots community music practices into academic settings

Māori musical practices - Discussion of waiata, kapa haka, and other traditional forms as examples of community music

Māori terms used in this episode:

Waiata - Māori songs that serve various cultural purposes and are central to Māori identity

Kapa haka - Traditional Māori performing arts including singing, dancing, and chanting

Marae - A communal and sacred meeting ground in Māori culture where formal greetings and discussions take place

Taonga puoro - Traditional Māori musical instruments, considered cultural treasures

Kura Kaupapa Māori - Māori-language immersion schools operating under Māori custom and using Māori as the medium of instruction

Te Reo Māori - The Māori language

Connect with Guest

University of Canterbury School of Music

Connect with Francis on LinkedIn

Listen to Salve Regina

In this episode, Melissa speaks with Phoene Cave, a registered music therapist, creative project manager, singer, trainer, and reflective practice supervisor who has spent two decades building social connections through music in some of the most challenging settings imaginable.

From working with female offenders in high-security prisons to pioneering Singing for Lung Health programs, Phoene brings a unique perspective on how music can create meaningful change. She's trained over 350 facilitators globally and is now bringing creative health toolkits to nursing students, helping healthcare workers discover the power of creativity for both self-care and patient care.

Phoene's philosophy of "creative compassionate disruption" informs everything she does, from her music therapy practice to her work with community musicians. In this conversation, she shares insights on establishing trust and safety, the importance of supervision and reflective practice, and why she believes compassion and empathy need to be balanced with healthy boundaries to prevent burnout.

Key Topics Discussed
Singing for Lung Health Training

How Phoene became a world specialist through learning on the job at Royal Brompton Hospital (2007)

The evolution from in-person to online training during the pandemic

Training over 350 facilitators globally, including respiratory nurses and physiotherapists

The importance of embodied practice and understanding respiratory issues

Music Therapy vs Community Music

The subtle distinctions between working as a music therapist and a community musician

How both can achieve similar outcomes, but with different levels of articulation and awareness

The power of music to shift narratives and create alternative experiences

Creative Health Training for Healthcare Workers

Providing creative health toolkits to nursing students at Roehampton University

The overwhelming soundscapes in hospitals and their impact on staff wellbeing

Teaching self-care through breath, movement, creative writing, and music

How creativity provides agency and encourages thinking outside the box

Supervision and Reflective Practice

Why supervision is vital for community musicians, especially those in challenging settings

The difference between music therapy supervision and reflective practice for community musicians

Compassion fatigue and the importance of boundaries

Values and Approach

Safety, trust, love, and presence as starting points with any group

The importance of physical space and "resonance" - being aware 360 degrees

Creative compassionate disruption as a guiding philosophy

Working in your "back body" - listening openly rather than being overly focused

Personal Journey

Training as a jazz improviser at Goldsmiths and overcoming challenges as a female vocalist

Multiple music therapy trainings creating an unusual and valuable perspective

The transition from performer to facilitator and finding fulfilment in giving others a voice

Discovering neurodivergence later in life

About Guest
Phoene Cave is a registered music therapist, creative project manager, singer, trainer, and reflective practice supervisor in the creative health field. She has spent two decades working with diverse communities in nurseries, schools, further and higher education, concert halls, social housing, care homes, hospitals, and a detention centre and prison.

Phoene is recognised as a world specialist in Singing for Lung Health, having trained over 350 facilitators globally since 2015. Her work bridges the worlds of music therapy, community music, and healthcare, bringing creative approaches to both patient care and healthcare worker wellbeing.

Her philosophy of "creative compassionate disruption" informs all her work, from facilitating sessions in challenging environments to training the next generation of creative health practitioners. She is currently working on recording an album revisiting songs from her earlier career as a jazz vocalist.

Connect with Guest

Website: www.phoenecave.co.uk

The Transit Collective: https://transitcollective.org/

Episode Highlights
[00:02:00] - The journey to becoming a Singing for Lung Health specialist - from answering an advertisement to training 350 facilitators globally

[00:06:15] - Learning on the job: the benefits and challenges of building the plane while flying it

[00:10:43] - What's the difference between music therapy and community music? A nuanced exploration

[00:15:18] - Establishing trust and safety: the starting point with any group, from prisoners to patients

[00:25:08] - Creative Health Toolkits for nursing students: transforming healthcare through creativity

[00:30:09] - The flow-on benefits when healthcare workers have creative tools for self-care

[00:35:04] - What is supervision in music therapy and why it matters for community musicians

[00:43:56] - Compassion fatigue: the danger of being a caring empath without boundaries

[00:46:25] - Why Phoene doesn't miss performing on stage (but is recording an album)

[00:49:50] - Advice to her 18-year-old self: "You have ADHD, and you're actually fine"

In this special solo episode, Melissa announces the publication of her new book, "Making Music That Matters: Positive Music Leadership for Social Health". She explores how musicians can address the crisis of social connection through community music-making, offering evidence-based frameworks for building meaningful careers whilst fostering social health and wellbeing.

"This book is my attempt to bridge two realities—to show that there's a way to have a fulfilling, sustainable career in music whilst also addressing one of the most pressing challenges of our time: the loss of human connection."

Endorsements
Professor Kim S. Cameron (University of Michigan)
"This wonderfully creative book shows how music transforms lives, teams, organizations, and society."

Dr Dave Camlin (Trinity Laban, UK)
"An essential read for emerging music leaders to help make sense of the complex and exciting traditions of socially transformational music making."

Professor Alexandra Lamont (University of Queensland)
"Well-researched and theoretically-grounded ... explores the less-well studied worlds of those who lead and facilitate democratic participatory music making."

Book Details
Title: Making Music That Matters: Positive Music Leadership for Social Health
Author: Melissa Forbes
Publisher: Routledge
Publication Date: 22 October 2025

ISBN Information:

Paperback: 9781032730660

Hardback: 9781032724157

eBook: 9781003426509