Leading Notes Podcast

Melissa speaks with Enya Cai, General Manager of Creativity Australia, the national charity behind the With One Voice choir network. With 26 choirs across Australia and a mission to end loneliness through group singing, Creativity Australia sits at a fascinating intersection of community music, social inclusion, and organisational leadership.

Enya brings a rare perspective: a childhood spent in the Australian Girls Choir, a career spanning accounting, diversity and inclusion, government policy, and arts management, and a longstanding connection to Creativity Australia that began when she was a teenager volunteering with the organisation. In this conversation, she reflects on what community choir facilitators have in common with corporate leaders, how loneliness really shows up in the people who walk through choir doors, and why patience might be the most underrated skill in both music and life.

Key Topics Discussed

The With One Voice model: all-inclusive, all-abilities choirs focused on connection over musical perfection

The skills that transfer between corporate leadership and choir facilitation

How Enya uses vocal warm-ups and arts-based activities in corporate leadership training

Why "human-centred" leadership faces pushback, and what's underneath that resistance

How loneliness manifests in choir participants—and why most wouldn't identify as lonely

The slow, patient process of belonging: how the choir model meets people where they are

The realities and complications of choir facilitation as work, including emotional wellbeing and financial sustainability

Notable Quotes
"The point of our choirs is not to be perfect in a musical way—it's to create connections and community wellbeing through what we know is a proven way of creating beautiful, meaningful, strong connections, and that is through singing together."

"The skills required to lead in a corporate setting are just as useful, and in some cases essential, and already displayed in community music settings."

"Loneliness can be voices in your head that tell you that no one wants to speak to you. Part of our work is to recognise those people and welcome them in."

"Patience is one of the keys to my sustainability in this sector, but also one of the biggest lessons we can continue to learn through community music."

"With one wave of my magic wand, I would like for our society to value music makers—and for them to be recognised and paid appropriately for that."

Resources Mentioned

With One Voice choirs — find a choir near you or enquire about facilitator training

About Enya Cai
Enya Cai is the General Manager of Creativity Australia, the national charity behind the With One Voice choir network—26 all-inclusive, all-abilities choirs across Australia with a mission to end loneliness through group singing. Her connection to the organisation goes back to her teenage years, when she first volunteered with the then-fledgling choir program.

Since then, Enya has built a career that spans public policy in the Victorian government, diversity and inclusion at EY, freelance arts management, theatre producing, and leadership coaching for corporate clients. She holds a Bachelor of Commerce and Graduate Diploma of Chartered Accounting, and brings that financial and strategic acumen to the arts sector with genuine purpose. Outside of work, she loves discovering new restaurants and spending time with her cat, Jelly.

Connect with Enya Cai

Creativity Australia: creativityaustralia.org.au

With One Voice choirs: withonevoice.org.au

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/enyacai/

Episode Highlights

00:01:13 — What Creativity Australia does and the With One Voice mission to end loneliness

02:53 — Enya's journey: from the Australian Girls Choir to accounting, diversity and inclusion, government, and back to the arts

07:35 — The shared skills of corporate leaders and choir facilitators

09:47 — Pushback on human-centred leadership, and what's really behind the resistance

11:31 — How Enya starts leadership training: self-reflection first

13:33 — Using vocal warm-ups and arts-based play in corporate training sessions

16:24 — Why workplaces feel so constraining—physically and spiritually

19:13 — Singing groups as workplaces: navigating the real complexities of facilitation

19:39 — How loneliness actually shows up in choir participants

22:19 — A story of slow, patient transformation: from sitting at the back of the room to performing on stage

26:02 — How to join a With One Voice choir or train as a facilitator

For Graham Sattler, being a musical inclusion advocate means building a life's work around a single conviction: that music is the activity with the fewest impediments to participation. In this episode, Melissa talks with Graham about the journey that took him from the opera stage and the orchestral trombone section to the heart of community music practice, and the moment in Orange, New South Wales, that crystallised everything.

Graham shares what he found when his Churchill Fellowship took him across eight countries investigating best-practice community music leadership training, and why the musicians he met were so strikingly clear about the why, how, and what of their work. He reflects on confidence, courage, and intrinsic motivation as essential leadership qualities; on generosity, compassion, and selflessness as the values that underpin effective practice; and on what happens to a community when leadership changes and those qualities disappear.

The conversation also turns to orchestras — Graham is currently CEO of the Christchurch Symphony Orchestra — and what it takes for professional performance organisations to engage authentically with community, rather than as a funding exercise. Honest, thoughtful, and full of hard-won insight, this is a conversation about what it really means to lead music that matters.

Key Topics Discussed

What "musical inclusion advocate" means and where that framing came from

Music as the most accessible participatory activity — and how to respond when that idea is challenged

The move from Sydney to Orange, NSW, and the moment community music came into sharp focus

The training gap in community music leadership across Australia and the Asia-Pacific

What Graham observed in leadership training programs across the US, Canada, Ireland, Scotland, England, Norway, Portugal, and Armenia

Confidence, courage, and intrinsic motivation as pillars of effective community music leadership

The values common to the best community music leaders: generosity, compassion, and selflessness

What happens to a community when leadership changes — and why training matters

Professional orchestras and community engagement: honest assessment of where the sector is and where it falls short

Community music as 60% of the Christchurch Symphony Orchestra's organisational output

Notable Quotes
"Music is the most accessible group activity that human beings can engage in — it has the fewest impediments to participation."

"Whatever they bring into the room is enough. Human beings are profoundly and intrinsically musical, and music is, similarly, profoundly human."

"I discovered what it was to be answerable to, responsible to, identifiable community — and that's when it really crystallised."

"I hadn't teased courage out of confidence before — but they are quite different things."

"When those qualities aren't there, people notice. People aren't stupid. They can spot a phony."

About Graham Sattler
Graham Sattler is an Australian musician, educator, and orchestra CEO whose career has taken him from the opera stage to the conductor's podium to the heart of community music practice. He has worked as a trombonist and singer with the Australian Opera, as a conductor of orchestras and choirs across Australia and internationally, and spent over a decade as director of regional conservatoriums in New South Wales — leading music programs with aged, disability, and at-risk youth communities. He holds a PhD in Music Education, a Master of Performance (Conducting), and a Graduate Certificate in the Psychology of Risk. In 2019, Graham was awarded a Churchill Fellowship to investigate best-practice community music leadership training programs across eight countries. He is currently CEO of the Christchurch Symphony Orchestra in Aotearoa New Zealand, where community engagement makes up 60% of the organisation's output.

Connect with Graham
LinkedIn

Christchurch Symphony Orchestra

Episode Highlights

00:01:27 — What "musical inclusion advocate" means, and how Graham arrived at that description

00:03:55 — Responding to the challenge: is music really the most accessible activity?

00:05:31 — Why the word "made" is the alarm bell for everything community music stands against

00:08:14 — The move to Orange, NSW, and the moment inclusion became central

00:13:25 — Why the leadership training gap matters — and what's lost when leadership changes

00:16:24 — What confidence actually looks like in community music leadership

00:21:19 — Confidence versus courage: two different things

00:23:09 — Whatever they bring into the room is enough

00:30:18 — The common values of effective community music leaders: generosity, compassion, selflessness

00:33:04 — Orchestras and community: an honest assessment

00:40:08 — The three closing questions: human connection, one song to unite a room, and a magic wand

Joel Carnegie—conductor, broadcaster, and storyteller—talks about Awkwardstra Geelong, a community orchestra that is quietly doing some of the most important social work in the business.

Joel shares how he came to Awkwardstra after a demanding period in his professional life, and why the experience fundamentally changed how he thinks about music and leadership. This episode is a masterclass in what inclusive, values-driven music-making can look like in practice.

Joel also reflects on his background as a storyteller and how narrative — including the music itself — can convey the value of community music in ways statistics simply can't. Drawing on his training in acting methods and voice work, he offers a thoughtful account of what it means to lead from the podium with empathy, clarity, and a willingness to sit with uncertainty.

This conversation is full of practical wisdom and genuine inspiration.

Key Topics Discussed

The origins of Awkwardstra Geelong and Joel's path to becoming its conductor

What radical inclusivity looks like in a community orchestra and the practical structures that support it

Managing a wide range of skill levels and experience: music selection, coaching programs, and section support

The "Awky Pass" and how the collective supports individual members facing financial barriers

The tension between musical quality and inclusivity and why it can be a generative rather than a destructive tension

The role of story in making the case for community music, including a commissioned piece built from players' own stories

How acting training and voice work inform Joel's practice as a conductor and ensemble leader

Empathy, clarity, and openness as core qualities in music leadership

What music leadership has to offer organisational leadership more broadly

Advice for young musicians interested in community music

Notable Quotes
"Making music for the joy of it, for creating connections across the community, and for offering people an opportunity to extend themselves — that's really what we're doing here."

"The podium never lies. There's no one else you can really be except yourself up there."

"We start every rehearsal by recognising that we've all had whatever happened during the day, and we take a moment to arrive into the space — intentionally — and remember that we're in physical bodies playing instruments that are physical."

"Music allows us to feel. And when we can feel, we can connect with other people. We're in the business of feeling-making and moment-making."

"People getting together and playing music is eternal. And those who are providing the structure for that to happen are creating guardrails and forms of resilience and resistance."

"Just because it's not happening in Sydney or Melbourne doesn't mean it is not of value."

Resources Mentioned

Awkwardstra Geelong — community orchestra based in Geelong, VIC

Kym Dillon — composer, pianist, and arranger who created a piece for Awkwardstra based on players' stories; performing with the orchestra again at the Geelong Arts Centre, 17 October 2026

Pako Festa (Pakington Street Festival) — Geelong's largest street festival; Awkwardstra performed as a flash mob opening act

Ingrid Martin — Joel's conducting coach

ABC Classic Evenings — national radio program hosted by Joel Carnegie

About Guest
Joel Carnegie is a conductor, performer, and storyteller whose work spans live music, broadcasting, and community engagement. Each weeknight he hosts the national Evenings program on ABC Classic, and his storytelling work has earned recognition at the New York Festivals International Radio Awards and The Whickers, a prestigious international award for audio storytelling.

From 2015 to 2024, Joel was Founder and Head of Storytelling at The Space Company, where he led the creation of music-rich podcasts, screen productions, and live stage works — including the nationally touring double bill Stardust + The Mission, which involved over 200 local musicians across 45 cities. A graduate of the Australia Council's Future Leaders program, he holds degrees from the University of Melbourne, Swinburne, and Deakin, with performance training in Graz, Austria.

Joel is now the Conductor of Awkwardstra Geelong, a community orchestra built on a simple but radical idea: that making music together should be open to everyone.

Connect with Guest
https://www.joelcarnegie.com/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/joelcarnegie/

Episode Highlights
[00:01:47] How Awkwardstra began — and why Joel joined
[00:05:37] The philosophy behind the name and what inclusivity looks like in the rehearsal room
[00:14:57] Removing barriers: the Awky Pass, coaching programs, and community support
[00:18:09] Musical quality vs. inclusivity — a generative tension
[00:22:19] The power of story in community music, and commissioning Kim Dillon
[00:28:13] Why Joel pursued acting methods and voice training — and how they shape his leadership
[00:32:24] The most important qualities in a music leader: empathy, openness, clarity
[00:36:28] What music leadership offers that other leadership models don't
[00:39:23] Advice for young musicians

Dr Belinda Densley has spent more than 30 years facilitating community singing groups in Geelong, Victoria, and over that time she came to understand that the work was never really about the voice. It was about the mechanics of heart, soul, and mind. That realisation led her through a Masters in Counselling and Psychotherapy and ultimately to a recently completed PhD, in which she developed a grounded theory of group singing facilitation she calls Creating Song Magic.

In this episode, Belinda unpacks that theory, exploring the four core dimensions of the facilitator's role: advocating for people's right to sing, curating repertoire that creates meaningful experiences, welcoming and sustaining harmonious expression in the room, and contributing to the transformation of communities. She also speaks candidly about the "hidden work" that singing facilitators do — work that has remained largely invisible, under-resourced, and poorly defined, even within music and community health sectors.

We talk about what it means to reframe the singing facilitator as a community health resource, the importance of boundary-setting and reflective practice, and why Belinda believes trauma-informed relational skills should be foundational to any future training for facilitators. She also shares a deeply moving story about a love-and-loss singing session that rippled far beyond the room.

Key Topics Discussed

The burning question behind Belinda's PhD

Why the singing facilitator role has remained hidden 

The four categories of Creating Song Magic: advocating, curating, welcoming and sustaining harmonious expression, and transforming communities

The difference between participatory, circle-based singing and performance-oriented models like pub choir

The facilitator as a community health resource and the consequences of that role remaining unrecognised and underfunded

Boundary-setting in facilitation, and how clarity within the facilitator translates to clarity for participants

The case for trauma-informed, relational training for singing facilitators 

Sharing research findings through a five-part podcast series as an accessible alternative to academic publishing

The systemic barriers community singing groups face in accessing physical spaces

The role of autonomous health-seeking behaviour in group singing participation

Notable Quotes
"The work was never really about the mechanics of the voice — it was about the mechanics of heart, soul, and mind."

"You have the fundamental human right to sing. You can sing."

"We're not asking, are we trying to get the notes to be accurate? We're trying to create the harmony that's beyond musical — a harmony of beingness, a harmony within community."

"People fell in love with the singing group and sometimes misplace that love for the facilitator. Getting clear on what your role is does so much of the work. The confusion really stops existing if you're not confused yourself."

"I don't advertise — people that come to me come via someone already in the group. There's already an expectation that there's going to be a wellbeing effect from coming."

"This thing that just happened today has caused so much therapeutic growth that is beyond the capacity of me as one individual."

"Singing with another allows so much possibility in — for love, actually, for love."

"There's no reason everyone in Australia can't be in a singing group once a week."

Resources

Creating Song Magic — Belinda Densley's grounded theory of group singing facilitation (PhD research, Federation University Australia)

Belinda's podcast documenting participant experiences of her singing groups 

Acabellas

About Guest
Dr Belinda Densley is a singing facilitator, counsellor, and researcher based in Geelong, Victoria, Australia. For more than 30 years, she has facilitated community singing groups grounded in the belief that singing is a fundamental human right and a powerful vehicle for wellbeing, connection, and community transformation.

Belinda holds a Masters in Counselling and Psychotherapy and a PhD from Federation University Australia, where her research focused on the process of group singing facilitation itself. Her grounded theory, Creating Song Magic, is the first study of its kind to illuminate the complex, relational, and largely invisible work that skilled singing facilitators perform. She also teaches postgraduate counselling students and mentors emerging facilitators.

Alongside her research, Belinda has disseminated her PhD findings through an accessible five-part podcast series, reflecting her commitment to making practitioner knowledge available beyond academic audiences.

Connect with Belinda

https://acabellas.com.au/contact/

Episode Highlights
02:00 — The burning question: what mechanisms beneath the wellbeing effects of group singing led Belinda to pursue a PhD?

03:00 — Why the singing facilitator role sits "in the middle of a lot of different areas" and has remained underexplored

05:30 — Singing as a "with" activity— participatory, relational, and whole-body expression

08:50 — Unpacking Creating Song Magic: advocating, curating, welcoming and sustaining harmonious expression, and transforming communities

13:00 — The role of community singing in a hyper-individualistic world: a radical reimagining of what community can be

19:40 — Autonomous health-seeking behaviour: why people come to Belinda's groups already expecting a wellbeing effect

22:00 — Grassroots growth versus scaled investment: how VicHealth and Community Music Victoria once blazed singing groups across Victoria

26:20 — A love-and-loss singing session: 70 people, no words — just song — and a ripple effect that extended far beyond the room

29:00 — The counselling background: why relational work, not musical training alone, is what takes facilitation to the next level

31:00 — Boundary-setting in practice: when participants misplace their love of the group onto the facilitator

34:00 — What Belinda would change: funded training programs, and council recognition of community singing groups in space allocation

39:00 — The closing questions: the lesson music has taught her about human connection, her song of choice for strangers, and her magic wand wish

What happens when a researcher brings together music education and criminology to advocate for the rights of some of society's most marginalised young people? In this episode, I speak with Dr Alexis Kallio, an interdisciplinary researcher whose work sits at a unique and important intersection—one that is challenging how institutions think about music, punishment, and what young people truly need to thrive.

Alexis shares how her background in both music education and criminology led her to focus on music programs in youth justice settings, and what she has learned from collaborating with Western Australian hip-hop artist Optimus (Scott Griffiths) on the Banksia Beats program at Banksia Hill Youth Detention Centre. She reflects on what it means to meet young people as musicians rather than as students, why ownership and trust are so transformative in carceral settings, and why trauma-informed practice is relevant for every musician working with young people, not just those in detention.

Throughout, Alexis makes a compelling case that music is not a luxury or a reward—it is a fundamental right for every child.

Key Topics Discussed

How Alexis's degrees in both music education and criminology shaped her research focus on youth justice settings

The Banksia Beats program at Banksia Hill Youth Detention Centre and what makes it effective

Why meeting young people as musicians—rather than as teacher and student—is central to building trust

The importance of agency, ownership, and strengths-based approaches in music programs for incarcerated youth

Trauma-informed practice and why it matters across all music education contexts

Why there is no one-size-fits-all pedagogical approach: responding to the individual in the room

The concept of "hungry listening" (Dylan Robinson) and what it means for musicians working in community settings

Alexis's national symposium on music, crime and social change and the community it has created

The Policing Australian Popular Music project and its work with Queensland Police Service

The case for music and music education as a fundamental right for every child

Notable Quotes
"At the end of the day, these are children."

"In a space where young people have ownership over literally nothing—they can't even choose the temperature of their shower—to have ownership over something with expensive music equipment, and have that as yours, can be a really powerful sense of pride."

"There is no one right way, because there's no one child."

"Music is all about connection. And connection is all about music."

"I'd like music and music education to be a right for every child, regardless of their background or circumstance—something that is seen as essential to their lives now, but also their growth."

"Young people's voices are sometimes articulated more clearly through their music than through any words they'll say to a social worker or a psychologist."

Resources Mentioned

Hungry Listening by Dylan Robinson

About Guest
Dr Alexis Kallio is an interdisciplinary researcher at Griffith University whose work explores how music education and creative practices create opportunities for equity and justice, particularly for young people experiencing vulnerability or marginalisation. Drawing on expertise in both music education and criminology, Alexis examines how educators and musicians navigate questions of power, values, and meaning in their work. Her research bridges grassroots community practice with institutional frameworks, asking critical questions about how creative spaces can be structured to support positive youth development. She has taught across studio, school, university, and community settings in both Australia and Finland.

Connect with Alexis

Episode Highlights

05:00 Why Alexis sees all young people—regardless of setting—as deserving the same child-centred approach to music

13:30 What makes the Banksia Beats program so effective, and why musical expertise matters

15:45 The profound impact of ownership and trust in a detention centre music studio

22:00 Why music is uniquely positioned to develop both individual identity and social connection simultaneously

26:00 Dylan Robinson's concept of "hungry listening" and what it means to truly listen to young people

29:00 The national symposium on music, crime and social change—and finding your people

33:30 Alexis's submission to the youth justice inquiry and her challenge to the idea of incarceration as a solution

36:30 The Policing Australian Popular Music project and working with Queensland Police Service