The Innovation Show

"Organisations love innovation, but they hate their innovators."
Jeff and Staney DeGraff return to The Innovation Show to close out Aidan McCullen's DeGraff trilogy with their book The Art of Change. Their argument is direct: change rarely fails because of bad strategy or weak execution. It fails because leaders bring the wrong mindset — treating change like a linear project when change is actually a paradox to be held.
In this conversation, Jeff and Staney reveal:
Why the man who saved Operation Warp Speed got passed over for promotion — and what his story tells every innovator about the cost of being right
The Jonas Salk warning every change-maker should hear: they won't notice, then they'll say you're doing it wrong, then they'll call you unprofessional, then they'll take credit for your work
Why apathy and alignment are the deadliest signs in any organisation
The seven core paradoxes of change — and the four-step paradox mindset cycle that breaks the deadlock
Why facts don't change minds (the Harriet Beecher Stowe story Lincoln told to prove it)
How Sears actually invented the digital economy and how mindset cost them the future
Why "deviance first, alignment later" is the funnel every leader gets backwards
The CIO joke that isn't funny: Career Is Over as soon as you take the job
Why the first pancake is never a good pancake — and what FAIL really stands for
Chapters: 00:00 Innovation in the AI era 01:03 Sponsor and book intro 01:40 Why change fails 02:36 Trilogy origins 06:12 Paradox and mindset 07:58 Why organisations punish their innovators 10:28 Luis, Rapid X, and Operation Warp Speed 16:52 Meaning over happiness 18:06 Time, not targets 19:45 The paradox mindset cycle 24:34 Marriage and money paradox 28:15 Conflict fuels change 32:27 Missed futures examples 36:44 Practice beats theatre 38:04 Builders versus bureaucrats 41:05 Skin in the game 42:35 Blocked by superiors 43:45 Leaders spot talent 44:49 Disruptors and failure 48:05 Boundaries create freedom 51:43 Innovation needs hideouts 53:59 Stories build culture 59:45 The seven paradoxes explained 01:07:38 Deviance, then alignment 01:13:10 The paradox mindset cycle 01:18:26 Final takeaways and wrap
About Jeff and Staney DeGraff Jeff DeGraff is the "Dean of Innovation" — Clinical Professor of Management at the Ross School of Business, University of Michigan, founder of the Innovatrium, and author of multiple bestselling books on creative leadership. Staney DeGraff is co-founder of the Innovatrium and Jeff's longtime collaborator. Together they've worked with half the Fortune 500 on what it actually takes to make change stick.
📘 The Art of Change — https://amzn.to/48mhX54
🌐 https://jeffdegraff.com
About The Innovation Show
The Innovation Show with Aidan McCullen is the Thinkers50-recognised podcast where square pegs find their place in a world of round holes. Each week, Aidan sits down with world-class authors, scientists, and practitioners to call out the "Emperor is naked" moments and explore disruption, transformation, leadership, and the ideas shaping tomorrow.
Connect 🌐 https://theinnovationshow.io
📨 Substack (and a chance to win a copy of The Creative Mindset): https://thethursdaythought.substack.com
🎧 Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/ie/podcast/the-innovation-show/id1148455669
🎧 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/63nFKf4bsSWo3W72gWtOsK?si=b62d9614237c4450
🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aidanmccullen
Sponsor
This series is brought to you by Kyndryl. Learn more about Kyndryl and the Kyndryl Institute at https://www.kyndryl.com.
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Description:
Creativity isn't reserved for geniuses—it's a skill you can learn, practice, and compound over time.
In this episode of The Innovation Show, Aidan McCullen sits down with Jeff and Staney DeGraff to explore their practical framework for everyday creativity: the C.R.E.A.T.E. method. Based on decades of research and real-world application, they break down how innovation actually happens—not through lightning bolts, but through small, iterative wins.
From clarifying the real problem to evaluating ideas effectively, this conversation reframes creativity as a disciplined, learnable process.
Sponsored by Kyndryl, this episode also includes a giveaway for subscribers.
What You'll Learn:
Why creativity is a learnable skill (not a talent)
The power of small wins and iterative thinking
How to identify the real problem before solving it
Techniques like SCAMPER, analogies, and storyboarding
Why evaluation—not ideation—often determines success
How constraints and failure fuel innovation
The C.R.E.A.T.E. Framework:
Clarify – Define the real problem through iteration
Replicate – Reapply ideas across domains
Elaborate – Generate ideas using creative techniques
Associate – Connect ideas through analogy and systems thinking
Translate – Turn ideas into compelling stories
Evaluate – Select the best ideas using structured methods
Timestamps:
00:00 Sponsor and Giveaway 00:45 Creativity as Learnable Skill 04:59 Find Your Creative Rhythm 11:11 Constraints and Small Wins 20:57 Clarify the Real Problem 25:25 Replicate and Reapply Ideas 29:01 Elaborate With Wordplay 36:43 Associate Through Analogies 40:43 Translate Into Story 46:09 Evaluate Ideas Wisely
Featured Book: The Creative Mindset by Jeff & Staney DeGraff
Find the DeGraffs: https://jeffdegraff.com

Aidan McCullen is a Thinkers50 Innovation Award winner, keynote speaker Ireland, and host of The Innovation Show—the only podcast ever to receive a Thinkers50 award.

What if the real driver of innovation isn't alignment—but conflict?
In this episode of The Innovation Show, Aidan McCullen is joined by Jeff and Staney DeGraff, co-authors of The Innovation Code, to explore a powerful idea: innovation emerges from the tension between opposing perspectives—not from consensus.
Drawing on decades of research and real-world application, they introduce four archetypes that shape how individuals and organisations innovate:
The Artist (creation & ideas)
The Engineer (process & execution)
The Athlete (performance & results)
The Sage (values & culture)
Each brings strengths—and blind spots.
The key? Not eliminating conflict—but orchestrating it.
 In this episode:
Why alignment can actually kill innovation
The role of constructive conflict in high-performing teams
How different mindsets clash—and why that's essential
The lifecycle of innovation and who leads at each stage
Why organisations fail when they can't change their worldview
How to build cultures of adaptability and reinvention
Featured Book:
The Innovation Code by Jeff & Staney DeGraff
Find the DeGraffs: https://jeffdegraff.com
Aidan McCullen is a Thinkers50 Innovation Award winner, keynote speaker Ireland, and host of The Innovation Show—the only podcast ever to receive a Thinkers50 award.

AI is triggering a "big bang" in how organizations operate—and those that adapt fastest will win.
In this episode, Stephen Wunker and Jonathan Brill explore the concept of the Octopus Organization, where intelligence is distributed, decisions happen at the edge, and workflows—not jobs—are automated. Drawing on biology, they explain how autonomy, governance, and visibility can coexist to unlock speed, resilience, and innovation.
The discussion dives into overcoming organizational debt, avoiding groupthink and analysis paralysis, and shifting from rigid hierarchies to adaptive "kill web" structures. Real-world examples—from L'Oréal's rapid product cycles to AI-powered patent creation at Deep Invent—highlight how companies are already transforming.
This episode is essential listening for leaders looking to redesign their organizations for the AI era.

How do you negotiate firmly, fairly, and effectively — without becoming a jerk?
 
In this episode of The Innovation Show, Aidan McCullen speaks with Barry Nalebuff — Yale professor, entrepreneur, and author of Split the Pie — about a principled approach to negotiation built around one simple idea: identify the pie, the extra value created only when both sides reach agreement, and split it equally.
 
Rather than relying on pressure, posturing, or arbitrary bargaining, Barry shows how negotiation can become a logical, ethical, and data-driven process. Drawing on cooperative game theory and real-world business experience, he explains why most people misunderstand what is actually being negotiated — and how that confusion leads to bad deals and bad relationships.
 
The conversation includes examples from:
Barry's mother buying her rented home,
Coca-Cola's acquisition of Honest Tea,
a negotiation with a domain-name squatter,
grant funding and workload-sharing examples,
lease-breaking, tax-loss mergers, and everyday fairness disputes.
 
This is a practical episode for founders, executives, investors, academics, negotiators, and anyone who wants to create better outcomes through principle instead of power plays.
 
What you'll learn in this episode:
 
What Barry Nalebuff means by "the pie"

Why fairness starts with understanding the real source of value

How to negotiate without aggression or manipulation

Why principles beat arbitrary numbers

How game theory can improve business and life decisions

How to avoid accepting less than your fair share

 
 
Timestamps
00:00 Sponsor Message
00:28 Negotiation Without Jerk
01:50 Split The Pie Idea
03:29 Dollar Bill Example
05:15 Mom House Deal
11:49 Talmud Cloth Principle
14:22 Honest Tea Coke Bottles
17:16 Coke Buyout Terms
22:02 Domain Troll Negotiation
27:33 Holding Firm on Fairness
28:36 Principles Over Arbitrary Numbers
31:17 Anju and Bharat Interest Puzzle
35:35 Power and Hidden Pie Ethics
37:23 Game Theory and Spock Logic
42:09 Sisyphus Grant Split Example
48:46 Breaking the Lease Loss Pie
52:01 Mergers Tax Losses and Equality
53:12 Fairness Equity and Negotiation Ethics
56:28 Where to Find Barry
57:29 Sponsor and Sign Off