The Foundr Podcast with Nathan Chan

Most founders are still thinking about AI as a faster way to do their work. But that is not what is happening anymore. AI agents do not help you do the task. They do the task for you. And if you have not started asking which roles in your business actually need a human, you are already behind.

Here is the thing: this is not a big tech problem or a future problem. Small and medium sized businesses are rebuilding their teams around this right now, and the ones doing it well are not replacing people for the sake of it. They are freeing up their human team to focus on the things that actually require judgment.

In this episode, I break down what AI agents actually are, how we are using them at Foundr across customer support, lead qualification and ad optimisation, and the practical first steps any e-commerce founder can take today.

Here's what you'll take away:

Why AI agents and AI tools are completely different things, and why that distinction changes how you think about hiring

How one founder cut his team from 48 to 30 people, replaced four software subscriptions, and saved $250,000 a year without losing any revenue

How Klarna deployed a single AI agent to do the work of 700 customer service reps

The repeatable, process-driven roles in every e-commerce business where agents are already outperforming humans

Where to start if you are a solo founder or small team: the customer support use case that pays off fastest

The one question to ask before every single hire from this point forward

If you are growing your team right now or thinking about your next hire, this episode will completely change how you evaluate that decision and what a lean, high-output operation can actually look like in 2025.

If you're loving this solo series, I'd love to hear your feedback. Email me directly at nathan@foundr.com — I read every reply. Hope you enjoy it.

WANT TO GROW YOUR BRAND WITH META ADS?
Join the Foundr Operators Waitlist → ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://foundr.com/operators⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

HOW WE CAN HELP YOU SCALE YOUR BUSINESS FASTER

Learn directly from 7, 8 & 9-figure founders inside Foundr+

Start your $1 trial → ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.foundr.com/startdollartrial⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

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CONNECT WITH NATHAN CHAN

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FOLLOW FOUNDR FOR MORE BUSINESS GROWTH STRATEGIES

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Podcast → ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.foundr.com/podcast⁠

While every brand was raising prices during inflation, Elina Wang cut hers—and nearly tripled revenue. The co-founder of ESW Beauty turned a juice bar epiphany and a $25,000 bank loan into a $20 million business across 10,000 retail doors, fully bootstrapped and profitable from day one. She did it by making the contrarian bet on retail-first when every founder around her was chasing DTC—then survived Covid wiping out every purchase order overnight while going through a co-founder breakup at the same time.

In this interview, Elina breaks down the real cost of getting into major retail, why she deliberately chose wholesale over DTC from day one, and the pricing move that took ESW Beauty from $4 million to $11 million in revenue.

What you'll learn in this interview:
• Why she bet on retail over DTC from day one—with just $5,000 left after her first trade show
• How a $25,000 SBA loan, a scrappy juice bar booth, and aggressive hallway pitching landed $250K in purchase orders
• The contrarian pricing move: why cutting price from $6 to $4.99 per mask nearly tripled revenue
• How Covid wiped out every PO overnight—and how Faire and gifting programs kept the business alive
• Why 95% wholesale requires 70%+ gross margins—and the hidden retail fees most founders discover too late
• The in-store promotional math: clip strips, end caps, and PDQ displays that cost $25–75K each but drive real velocity
• How she navigated building a business with her co-founder after they broke up—and why they kept going anyway
• Why it took three years of persistence to crack Target—and what metrics finally convinced the buyer
• The leadership shift every founder dreads: how she learned to let go and trust a team after running everything herself
• What she'd tell founders about choosing a co-founder before anything else

If you're building a CPG or beauty brand, trying to crack retail without burning through cash, or wondering what profitable bootstrapped growth at eight figures actually looks like, this conversation will fundamentally change how you think about distribution, pricing strategy, and what it takes to survive the moments that would end most companies.

Ready to scale with Meta Ads the right way?Join Nick Shackelford (BREZ $90M+), Phoenix Ha, and Nathan Chan LIVE on 19 June (EDT) / 20 June (AEST) for a FREE 2-hour workshop packed with proven strategies for creative testing, customer acquisition, and profitable scale.Save your free spot: https://foundr.com/pages/fom-workshop

SAVE 50% ON OMNISEND FOR 3 MONTHS
Get 50% off your first 3 months of email and SMS marketing with Omnisend with the code FOUNDR50. Just head to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://your.omnisend.com/foundr⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to get started.

WANT TO GROW YOUR BRAND WITH META ADS?
Join the Foundr Operators Waitlist → ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://foundr.com/operators⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠
HOW WE CAN HELP YOU SCALE YOUR BUSINESS FASTER
Learn directly from 7, 8 & 9-figure founders inside Foundr+
Start your $1 trial → ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.foundr.com/startdollartrial⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

PREFER A CUSTOM ROADMAP AND 1-ON-1 COACHING?
→ Starting from scratch? Apply here →
⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://foundr.com/pages/coaching-start-application⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠
→ Already have a store? Apply here →
⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://foundr.com/pages/coaching-growth-application⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

CONNECT WITH NATHAN CHAN
Instagram → ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/nathanchan⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠
LinkedIn → ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/nathanhchan/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

CONNECT WITH ELINA WANG
Instagram → ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/esw.beauty/
Website → ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://eswbeauty.com/

FOLLOW FOUNDR FOR MORE BUSINESS GROWTH STRATEGIES
YouTube → ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/2uyvzdt⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠
Website → ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.foundr.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠
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Podcast → ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.foundr.com/podcast⁠

Tori Gill was still cutting hair on weekends when she sold her first 20,000 sunscreens. A former hairdresser with two kids, no e-commerce background, and a product that took two years to develop, she launched Sun & Daughter on Boxing Day 2024 and hasn't really stopped since. This is the follow-up episode - and a lot has happened.

In this episode, Tori gets real about what scaling from $100K to a million-dollar brand actually looks like from the inside: the stockouts, the 54-hour Facebook ad account lockout, the $20,000 orders she had to back herself on, and the retail decision she's made that could either be her smartest move yet - or, in her own words, "the biggest mistake of my life."

What you'll learn in this interview:

How a consumer watchdog report on failing sunscreen SPF tests became an unexpected growth moment - and how Tori moved fast enough to capitalise on it

Why she packed every order from her spare room for a full year, alongside two kids and two days a week in the barber shop, before finally moving into a warehouse the week before Christmas

The exact moment a Choice magazine article turned into a sales spike, and how having your formula independently tested can become your most credible marketing asset

How Tori used a trending audio format - kids in hats, waiting for SPF results - to make an ad that outperformed every polished campaign she'd ever run

Why she treats her Instagram like a reality TV show, and what that means for how she handles UGC, consistent visuals, and the decision never to post other people's faces on her brand page

The average order value lesson she learned from Founder that led her to build out hats, brushes, wet bags, and bundles - and push her AOV from $75 to over $111

Why she skipped Black Friday, never ran a sale in year one, and then sold 1,000 sunscreens in 24 hours the first time she did - and why she hasn't done it since

Lessons from adding 5 to 10 new ad creatives every single week, and why she's changed her entire campaign structure three times in 15 months

How she uses Instagram Stories polls to let her community choose product colours, hat designs, and packaging - and why it's as much about solving her own indecisiveness as it is about building loyalty

What she's learned about going into major retail - the upfront stock commitments, the hidden marketing costs, and why she still doesn't know if it was the right call

If you're building a product brand and starting to feel like you're holding multiple plates in the air at once - ads, content, stock, manufacturing, team, retail - this episode is worth your time. Tori doesn't have it all figured out, and she says so. But the way she thinks through each decision, tests before she scales, and keeps backing herself anyway is exactly the kind of thinking that turns a spare-room operation into something real.

Ready to scale with Meta Ads the right way?Join Nick Shackelford (BREZ $90M+), Phoenix Ha, and Nathan Chan LIVE on 19 June (EDT) / 20 June (AEST) for a FREE 2-hour workshop packed with proven strategies for creative testing, customer acquisition, and profitable scale.Save your free spot: https://foundr.com/pages/fom-workshop

SAVE 50% ON OMNISEND FOR 3 MONTHS
Get 50% off your first 3 months of email and SMS marketing with Omnisend with the code FOUNDR50. Just head to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://your.omnisend.com/foundr⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to get started.

WANT TO GROW YOUR BRAND WITH META ADS?
Join the Foundr Operators Waitlist → ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://foundr.com/operators⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

HOW WE CAN HELP YOU SCALE YOUR BUSINESS FASTER
Learn directly from 7, 8 & 9-figure founders inside Foundr+
Start your $1 trial → ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.foundr.com/startdollartrial⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

PREFER A CUSTOM ROADMAP AND 1-ON-1 COACHING?
→ Starting from scratch? Apply here →
⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://foundr.com/pages/coaching-start-application⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠
→ Already have a store? Apply here →
⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://foundr.com/pages/coaching-growth-application⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

CONNECT WITH BY TORI GILL
Instagram → https://www.instagram.com/sunanddaughter_/

Tori's ⁠⁠⁠Instagram → ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/@torigill__/

Tori's Barber ⁠Instagram → ⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/torigill_barber/
Website → ⁠⁠https://www.sunanddaughter.com.au/

FOLLOW FOUNDR FOR MORE BUSINESS GROWTH STRATEGIES
YouTube → ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/2uyvzdt⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠
Website → ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.foundr.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠
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Podcast → ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.foundr.com/podcast⁠

I see it every single time. Great product. Solid branding. Ads running. And yet it won't scale. Conversions are flat, the economics don't work, and the founder is convinced it's the creative or the funnel or the targeting.

It's never the ads. It's the offer.

Here's the problem: most founders spend 90% of their time perfecting the product and almost no time on the complete package around it. The framing, the bundle, the guarantee, the AOV. And without that, no amount of ad spend is going to save you.

In this episode, I break down what a deliberately engineered offer actually looks like, why getting it right is the single biggest unlock for scaling, and the real-world examples from our Foundr Operators members and the brands spending $100K-plus a day that prove it.

Here's what you'll take away:

Why conversion problems are almost always an economics and offer problem, not a product, creative, or funnel problem

How IM8 turned a supplement powder into an irresistible offer and why every element of their bundle is deliberately engineered

How Foundr Operators member Emma tripled her brand's revenue with Sisu without increasing traffic, just by rebuilding her offer

The AOV floor every e-commerce brand needs to hit before paid ads can scale profitably

What makes an offer feel risk-free: guarantees, social proof, returns policy, and friction reduction done right

Why your customer isn't buying a product. They're buying certainty, value, and the feeling that this is the obvious choice

If your ads aren't scaling and your conversion rate isn't moving, stop tweaking your creative and start here. Getting the offer right is the thing that changes the trajectory, and everything else gets easier once it clicks.

If you're loving this solo series, I'd love to hear your feedback. Email me directly at nathan@foundr.com — I read every reply. Hope you enjoy it.

Ready to scale with Meta Ads the right way?Join Nick Shackelford (BREZ $90M+), Phoenix Ha, and Nathan Chan LIVE on 19 June (EDT) / 20 June (AEST) for a FREE 2-hour workshop packed with proven strategies for creative testing, customer acquisition, and profitable scale.Save your free spot: https://foundr.com/pages/fom-workshop

WANT TO GROW YOUR BRAND WITH META ADS?
Join the Foundr Operators Waitlist → ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://foundr.com/operators⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

HOW WE CAN HELP YOU SCALE YOUR BUSINESS FASTER

Learn directly from 7, 8 & 9-figure founders inside Foundr+

Start your $1 trial → ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.foundr.com/startdollartrial⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

PREFER A CUSTOM ROADMAP AND 1-ON-1 COACHING?

→ Starting from scratch? Apply here → ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://foundr.com/pages/coaching-start-application⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

→ Already have a store? Apply here → ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://foundr.com/pages/coaching-growth-application⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

CONNECT WITH NATHAN CHAN

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LinkedIn → ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/nathanhchan/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

FOLLOW FOUNDR FOR MORE BUSINESS GROWTH STRATEGIES

YouTube → ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/2uyvzdt⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

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A Victoria's Secret Angel and a Goldman Sachs investor built one of the
most talked-about luxury body care launches in recent memory without
raising a cent or paying a single influencer. Jasmine Tookes spent two
decades on the world's biggest runways turning down incubator deal after
incubator deal, waiting to build something real. When she finally met
Sabrina Carstensen—who spent years evaluating consumer brands at
Goldman—they launched Brunel bootstrapped, profitable, and with a
two-person team that pushed their chemists harder than any brand they'd
ever worked with.

In this interview, the co-founders of Brunel break down how they built a
luxury body care brand from scratch on a lean budget, why organic
community came before paid ads, and what it actually takes to get
suppliers and manufacturers to take a self-funded brand seriously.

What you'll learn in this interview:
• Why Jasmine turned down 15 years of incubator deals before building her own brand
• How they kept capital in reserve for collection two before collection one ever sold
• Why word of mouth and organic TikTok drove their entire early growth—no paid influencers
• Why the three-oil bundle outsold every individual product on launch day
• The packaging crisis four months before launch—and how sheer persistence solved it
• Why they stayed fully organic for six months before turning on paid ads
• How Sabrina's investor background shapes every capital decision at Brunel
• Why they didn't hire until they were ready—not desperate
• Why their chemists said no brand had ever pushed them this hard
• What Miranda Kerr's 11 years building Kora taught Jasmine about legacy brands

If you're building a beauty or lifestyle brand, trying to grow
profitably without burning cash on paid ads before you're ready, or just
want the real story behind what luxury brand building looks like on a
bootstrapped budget, this conversation will change how you think about
product standards, community, and building something that lasts beyond
the founder's name.

Ready to scale with Meta Ads the right way?Join Nick Shackelford (BREZ $90M+), Phoenix Ha, and Nathan Chan LIVE on 19 June (EDT) / 20 June (AEST) for a FREE 2-hour workshop packed with proven strategies for creative testing, customer acquisition, and profitable scale.Save your free spot: https://foundr.com/pages/fom-workshop

SAVE 50% ON OMNISEND FOR 3 MONTHS
Get 50% off your first 3 months of email and SMS marketing with Omnisend with the code FOUNDR50. Just head to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://your.omnisend.com/foundr⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to get started.

WANT TO GROW YOUR BRAND WITH META ADS?
Join the Foundr Operators Waitlist → ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://foundr.com/operators⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠
HOW WE CAN HELP YOU SCALE YOUR BUSINESS FASTER
Learn directly from 7, 8 & 9-figure founders inside Foundr+
Start your $1 trial → ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.foundr.com/startdollartrial⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

PREFER A CUSTOM ROADMAP AND 1-ON-1 COACHING?
→ Starting from scratch? Apply here →
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→ Already have a store? Apply here →
⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://foundr.com/pages/coaching-growth-application⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

CONNECT WITH NATHAN CHAN
Instagram → ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/nathanchan⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠
LinkedIn → ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/nathanhchan/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

CONNECT WITH BRUNEL
Instagram → ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/brunel/
Website → ⁠https://brunelbeauty.com/

Jasmin's Instagram → ⁠https://www.instagram.com/jastookes/

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Podcast → ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.foundr.com/podcast⁠