Episode 55: Schema Therapy in Chinese and other Collectivist Cultures: Implications for Clinical Practice & Training in the Model Beatrice Ng-Kessler & Rob Brockman
Page 1 of 25What’s the Schemata Episode Recorded 23/04/2025 – SchemaTherapy in Chinese and other Collectivist Cultures:Implications for Clinical Practice & Training in the ModelFormatted Transcript: Beatrice Ng-Kessler & Robert BrockmanRobert Brockman: Hi.Robert Brockman: All right. Welcome everyone to What's the Schemata? And today I've gota really special guest with us. I'm speaking with Beatrice Ng-Kessler, who is a privatepractitioner working out of London, England, and also a Hong Kong expatriate who hasrecently started the Chinese Schema Therapy Academy in Hong Kong. So welcome, Beatrice.Robert Brockman: How you doing?Beatrice Ng-Kessler: I'm well, thanks so much. I'm good. I'm good, nervous, speaking inEnglish. Robert Brockman: A bit nervous. I know you're a bit of a listener actually talkingbackstage with you. I know that you listen to the pod sometimes. So what's that like comingon the pod when you're also a listener?Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah, I enjoy that a lot. Yeah. And learn a lot from it, you know, fromdifferent guest speakers. I really appreciate that. I even think about, you know. Is thatsomething cool to do it in my mother tongue? You know, I do really think about that.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: But yeah, I found, you know there's so much effort that you have to putin so to do. Robert Brockman: Podcast.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah, lots.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Pranks. Robert Brockman: Yeah, you could do. What's the SchemataChinese language Robert Brockman: like this? All right. Well, you know, you and I work alittle bit together and doing things. Robert Brockman: you know, with disseminating schematherapy in Hong Kong. And we've been working closely together now for a little while onthose things, and Robert Brockman: you know. So I'm really excited to have you here todaybecause we've been sharing ideas a little bit here and there, and really really excited to haveyou on board and really interrogate some issues around applying schema therapy within aChinese cultural context, and to some degree sort of extrapolating that out to working moregenerally with Asian patients and those with an Asian cultural background which many ofus do, of course. Robert Brockman: So my, I guess I guess I wanted to start this RobertBrockman: with you, just to give a little bit of context as to as to how this came up, as well asa particular interest. Robert Brockman: I've known you for a little while now, and RobertBrockman: you know my background in getting interested in this goes back to roughly2015. When I started doing.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: I'll try. Robert Brockman: In Singapore. This is, I know you know thesethings. By the way, Beatrice Ng-Kessler, this is mainly for the listeners, and Robert© schematherapytrainingonline.comWhat’s the Schemata? A Podcast for Schema Therapists with Chris Hayes & Rob BrockmanPage 2 of 25Brockman: you know at that time. Robert Brockman: There were very little trainings inAsia, you know, accredited schema therapy trainings that were available. There'd been oneor 2 here and there. Jeff Young had travelled to Singapore on one occasion. RobertBrockman: and so there wasn't a lot of access to those kind of accredited trainings in Asia atall, really, at that time, and Robert Brockman: it kind of struck me fairly early that it wasn'treally a sort of business, as usual thing. You know my job as a trainer, you know, therapistswere asking really interesting, but also Dicey questions about how the model applies intheir culture. I'm talking about Singapore. Robert Brockman: you know, so they would askthings like, what if the client would never speak up to their parents in an assertive way like,say, an imagery out of respect? Robert Brockman: Or you know what if speaking back to acritic in any dialogues, might make the client feel worse in some way. Robert Brockman:have a sort of iatrogenic effect.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah. Robert Brockman: So some therapists started makingsuggestions for modification of techniques based on more of an insider culturalunderstanding. Robert Brockman: And I remember really clearly in my mind. Around 2019,I was doing a training in Hong Kong. It was a level 2 training. And I started thinking. And wehad a really cool discussion with a bunch of guys that came back for level 2 training. RobertBrockman: I realized I was probably learning more from them than they were learning fromme, that is, that I was learning as much, perhaps more, about the cultural nuances as theywere getting out of the level 2 training of the actual model. Robert Brockman: and I wasreally humbled by that, and it really sparked an interest for me, and I sort of ran back toSydney, and at the time I had an academic position. Robert Brockman: and I startedplanning a small study with the help of a master's student. Alana Mao at the time was doingher master's at the University of Technology in Sydney, and we collaborated with folks herein Hong Kong and also Singapore. So Cliff Hsu from Hong Kong, and also Michelle Neo fromSingapore. Robert Brockman: who had done the trainings, and we ran a small study RobertBrockman: looking at the experience of Asian therapists applying the model in their localcontext. So Robert Brockman: I will put that paper in the show notes. If anyone's interestedbut fast forward to last year, you and I start talking sort of over the email and talking aboutsort of issues to do with cultural lens and schema therapy, particularly Chinese cultural lens.We start planning some things in terms of some trainings in Hong Kong. Robert Brockman:and I really been enjoying your really thoughtful blog posts that you've been making for thepast 6 months or so. You know, looking at exactly this space, and in my eyes really fleshingout a lot of nuance Robert Brockman: about working in this space. So this is the background.I guess I wanted to share with the listeners for today's pod. And Robert Brockman: so, if wecould, if I could now ask you the 1st proper question, and we start the interview proper.Robert Brockman: Why don't you just introduce yourself a little bit, Beatrice Ng-Kessler,and say a few things about your background that might show its relevance to this area ofcultural practice and schema therapy.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah, sure. So I have been practicing as a clinical psychologist for the13 years right now, and I register in Hong Kong in the Uk.© schematherapytrainingonline.comWhat’s the Schemata? A Podcast for Schema Therapists with Chris Hayes & Rob BrockmanPage 3 of 25Beatrice Ng-Kessler: And back. Then, when I was in Hong Kong, I opened my clinic in like2,016, and by then I have, like around. Half of my clients are expats.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: which means they are not from Hong Kong. They can be from Asia,countries, Europe, America, and then I took your class since 2,019, I think, and I wasaccredited in 2,021, and I'm the I'm the 1st one in China and Hong Kong, and then I wasaccredited as supervisor in 2,024.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: So after I moved to the to London, in fact, I have more ChineseBeatrice Ng-Kessler: client, I would say, in in with Chinese heritage or not exactly. They arefrom China or Hong Kong, but they can be from different countries, but they speak ourlanguage, or they have, like Chinese parents.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: and so it it have. Give me different tastes of this. You know that howChinese has been affecting us in a way like the culture the not just the upbringing, but alsothe parenting. Robert Brockman: So initially. When I met you, I met you roughly 2018 2019.That was a set of trainings that we did at the time in Hong Kong, Chris and myself. RobertBrockman: you completed the trainings. Robert Brockman: and at the time you wereworking privately in Hong Kong with mostly Western expats, is that? Did I catch that right.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: It's it's like half-half at the time in Hong Kong. Robert Brockman: Like amix.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah, it's not a mix. So so I have a lot of learning actually is fromapplying it with WesternersBeatrice Ng-Kessler: like, because that that for me is a tolerance training, I have to say,because it's like.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: because therapy takes so much of you right. And when you're workingit's almost very intimate right there, and the way I have to do with parenting in a very, veryexplicit way, you know, with someone from an individualistic backgroundBeatrice Ng-Kessler: for me itself is a tolerance training, you know, like how I have to makeit very explicit to say those things in imagery and chair work. I often have goosebumps.Robert Brockman: Like the limit of parenting. So so I'm imagining you mean things like, youknow I care about you. I'm here for you. Is that what you mean like some of those moredirect care.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah, exactly. Exactly like, if I I invite a client to imagine your momsaying this, I have to say something really close to where they are. Robert Brockman: So youwere doing. You're putting yourself through exposure therapy. That's what you're saying.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Exactly. Robert Brockman: And.© schematherapytrainingonline.comWhat’s the Schemata? A Podcast for Schema Therapists with Chris Hayes & Rob BrockmanPage 4 of 25Beatrice Ng-Kessler: And I have like. Robert Brockman: And on your hierarchy. Were yourWestern clients lower on the hierarchy, so was it easier initially to practice the model withyour Western expat clients and to say those things you know, practicing, I guess classicschema therapy Robert Brockman: with expat Western clients before then going on to yourChinese clients and trying to land some of these more intimate, limited, reparenting typesentiments.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: You can say that you can say that in some way it is more directapplying. But at the same time it's for me, because I have that my own cultural backgroundmaking me actually not very familiar with those language.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: So that's like an internal tolerance training for me. But on the surface,you know, I have to see like. Oh, the client seems receptive to it, it seems really how thingswork, you know. So so like, I have this kind of learning before you know I try to apply topeople closer to my own culture. Robert Brockman: Yep.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: And also in supervision, you know. So I start to supervise people fromdifferent cultural background, like clinical psychologists in the Uk Germany. And I also see,like when I need to verbalize the clinical knowledge.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: And I see that how? How? The difficulty of it like when I'm talking to aexpress who is seeing an Asian client, for example.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: or the reverse. You know the Asian practitioners for Cnn. Expats, so Isee that I have to make them understand something through their own lens, and that havemade me practice a lot of you know how to verbalize those very toxic knowledge that I havelearned from the application. Robert Brockman: Yep, yep, and I mean, how? How's yourschema therapy journey been so far? So I know. I know that you did the workshops, andthen you ran off and got some supervision. Did you have a Robert Brockman: you know?Who did you get supervised by someone from a Western background?Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yes.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: yes, yes, except you know, she is my 1st supervisor. So she is alsoChinese, but growing up in the Western countries and then all of them from a Western inmore individualistic background. But I have a fabulous experience. I would say, I totallyBeatrice Ng-Kessler: very, very important experience. I would. I would often say, it's acorrective emotional experience to me. Being supervised by someone with different culture,because I can see, like how my supervisor have been using chemotherapies.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: spirits in it, like the limited reparenting in the process. When I becomea supervisor, I go for supervision training. So I start to say, Oh, that's what! Why they aredoing this. Oh, that's what they are doing, you know. I. Robert Brockman: I see.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: To see and reflect on my own experience. So I do feel. This is partlywhy I'm very passionate with schema therapy, and I also think practicing schema therapy© schematherapytrainingonline.comWhat’s the Schemata? A Podcast for Schema Therapists with Chris Hayes & Rob BrockmanPage 5 of 25itself is strengthening. My healthy adult, too. Robert Brockman: So you've been healingyourself along the way.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: I think so. I think so. Robert Brockman: That's.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: It's very, very different from where I come from. You know thesupervision experience is totally different. Robert Brockman: There's a couple of threadsthere like in my mind, and these things bounce around in my mind if I don't pick up onthem. Robert Brockman: One of them is that. And I can see that, you know, when I learnedschema therapy within a Western cultural background, it was just learning the model,whereas I can see you're wrestling with 2 processes. You're learning the model. And thenyou're doing a kind of cultural translation kind of piece. Where, how does this fit within thecultural context that I'm from, or that I'm working in. Robert Brockman: So it's a tougherjob. You know, you're kind of it's almost like you're translating, you know, when youtranslate like a measure or something, you have to translate it and back. Translate it. RobertBrockman: You know.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yes, yes. Robert Brockman: That's very laborious.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Translator and back translator. That's exactly how I feel sometimes. Soit's not just the language. It's not just these, because it's not apple to apple.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Sometimes it's apple to orange, and then the orange means apple andlemon. So is this. It's just a little. Robert Brockman: So this is what I'm interested in selfishly.I want to learn. I want to know, you know, because it's only been this last couple of years.Now we have someone like you who's made it all the way through to being an ISSTaccredited supervisor. And that's very valuable for us also to have someone with that sort ofknowledge of the model, but also the cultural knowledge. So you'd be very busy doing theback translation for the next 3 Robert Brockman: for years, while you know all that work'sbeing done to sort of understand how the model fits. Robert Brockman: And I guess that'spartly what we're doing today, you know, to really interrogate that a little bit more. So it'svery exciting. Robert Brockman: okay. And I just want to ask you another question here, Iguess. Look, let's dive straight into the sort of big ticket item. Robert Brockman: It's oftensaid that Asian cultures tend to be much more on the collectivist dimension versus moreindividualistic. Robert Brockman: What impact might exposure to collectivist culturalpractices have on the development of particular schemas or coping modes.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: I think one thing that we should bear in mind is that people fromcollective listed culture, they used to see themselves as part of the group.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: It's less seeing themselves as an individual versus coming. You know,people with individualistic backgrounds. So it changed a lot of things, of how we interactwith one another, and even how we perceive the world© schematherapytrainingonline.comWhat’s the Schemata? A Podcast for Schema Therapists with Chris Hayes & Rob BrockmanPage 6 of 25Beatrice Ng-Kessler: so like the world that we grow up from is you. You are. You are nottaught to pursue your dream. You are taught to pursue, you know, to contribute. RobertBrockman: With a big.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah, good.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: So you can see the self-sacrificing spirit like that. Robert Brockman: Orit could be that you're taught to pursue somebody else's dreams, or the groups.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Or like the bigger the group. Yeah, the group. And it's a virtue, youknow. You're promoted. You reinforce you with appreciation. A lot of validation in fromfrom the authority from your parents, your teachers. So you are. You are taught that way.So, and you can see that also, partly what we enforce the subjugation.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: because you are not supposed to justBeatrice Ng-Kessler: talk. Be yourself, but you are supposed to follow some rules like theHierarchical Society is very well received in most collectiveness culture. So there is strongideas about how we should interact with one another, with your senior, with someone. Youshould be more respectful. And what does that mean by that? And often obedience istrained since childhood.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: because that's the way you show respect, or even, I would say love tothe authority, you know the obedience becomes part of theBeatrice Ng-Kessler: voted. Robert Brockman: So. So we in Australia are not very obedient.We're sort of we're convicts, we're, you know, back in the days. So Robert Brockman: youknow. Yeah, this is a very different culture. You know the idea of hierarchy, you probablyunderstand. In Australia. Culturally, we have a much more flat hierarchy. We really sort ofdon't like strong hierarchies, whereas.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah. Robert Brockman: Where you're from. That's sort of a given thatthings are more hierarchical, and that's normal and acceptable, and Robert Brockman: evengood things sometimes.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It's seen as something positive. And you werepromoted by people with power, you know, like your parents, right? Like your schoolteachers right? Your coach. Right? So it's very, very different upbringing, and it also apply inthe therapy room. It's common enough. The client will see the therapist as an authority.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: so they follow your advice.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: So whenever you say something, they see it as this is the expert saying,and I have to listen. Robert Brockman: And that can be a good thing sometimes.© schematherapytrainingonline.comWhat’s the Schemata? A Podcast for Schema Therapists with Chris Hayes & Rob BrockmanPage 7 of 25Beatrice Ng-Kessler: It can be, of course, but at the same time it can be a barrier for us tounderstand our client better, or in a in more depth, because they. Robert Brockman: To theemotions.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Exactly like how they, you know how they can be free and feel safe toexpress is something the therapists have to work on, and I see a lot of from my supervisor. Isee some time that I feel like from there, from a more individualistic background.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: They feel like they can just verbalize it. Robert Brockman: Hmm.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: That means a safe space, right to invite your client openly like, Oh, Iwant to. You want you to be feel free to express, and so they all mean good. Just the clientmay not feel it the same way, because they may not have those experience.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: You. You hear something, but you don't know. What does that actuallycan happen?Beatrice Ng-Kessler: So for the clients, you know, they hear. It doesn't mean they really feelsafe to express themselves.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: So the therapists have to do a lot more to create that safe space. RobertBrockman: So so we're talking about, you're talking about sort of other directed typeschemas, self-sacrifice. Robert Brockman: you've talked about the sense of maybeenmeshment type schemas might be more common, or at least there's a more of a culturalpressure towards things like being very close to your family unit. Robert Brockman: Yeah,you've talked about things like conformity. So we're talking about things like.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yes. Robert Brockman: Put pressure to be more subjugated and to sortof Robert Brockman: so to keep harmony, let's say in the group, yeah, to put your own needsaside Robert Brockman: that cluster of schemas. Can I mention that? Can I mentionunrelenting standards? You didn't mention it? But is this can be a bit more common as well.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah. Yeah. In general, I have the impression, too. Like, I mean, landingstandard is assumed.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: So with a lot of people with Chinese heritage. So you in the morelayman terms is. Sometimes you feel they're more competitive. Robert Brockman: Yeah.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Because they have very high demands, since they were very small. Sothey're used to that. They talk to themselves that way. Robert Brockman: Yes, it's more. It'smore normalized within the culture.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's true. Robert Brockman: I want to have a littlesidetrack here. I heard it was. I've got some, you know. I supervise a few people in HongKong and Singapore, and Robert Brockman: and the mental health system is very tricky.Let's say, particularly in Hong Kong. There's a lot of pressure on the system. RobertBrockman: you know, for those in public mental health, and it's common that therapists are© schematherapytrainingonline.comWhat’s the Schemata? A Podcast for Schema Therapists with Chris Hayes & Rob BrockmanPage 8 of 25seeing a lot of clients. You know. They have a very big list, a very big wait list. RobertBrockman: It's a lot of pressure.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah. Robert Brockman: And Robert Brockman: sometimes it leadseven to the situation where a therapist might be seeing a client at best, once a month. Forsome it might be once every 2 months.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yes. 2 monthly. Yeah. Kind of contact. Robert Brockman: And it hasbeen said to me more than once from these therapists, even though they are frustrated, theysaid, you know what, Rob. Robert Brockman: in some weird way, some of the clients,because the resource is so constricted they come very, very motivated, almost with a sort ofunrelenting attitude. Let's get the most out of this session. I'm not going to see you for 2months. Robert Brockman: and.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yep. Robert Brockman: And absolutely taking full advantage of thesesessions. So that was sort of something I hadn't thought of that could be possible. I mean,what do you think of that idea.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: That's where weBeatrice Ng-Kessler: normal to me. I have been working in public setting in Hong Kongbefore. That's very normal. That's why therapist is very exhausted, and sometimes overloadthe client with too much information by just speaking.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: You know, experiential intervention is very different from your psychoeducating your client, but a lot of therapists, because they want to give the most in that veryshort period of time.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Then they become like they talk too much because they want to giveyou so much things. They help you. Robert Brockman: And usually that would be a trap likewe think that's a bit of a trap in schema. But Robert Brockman: it's tough if you're running.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: It affects the safe space, you know, like what I just mentioned about therole of authority within the therapy room. Sometimes it becomes, you know you are being ateacher right there too much, and the clients doesn't actually able to feel how they feel byverbalizing it enough, or by staying with their emotion enough to experience something. Butthe therapist is very rushed, so they have the stress of doing moreBeatrice Ng-Kessler: that becomes difficult for them to create a safe space because they mayintervene too quickly, and they may not pay enough close enough attention. You know ofhow the clients speak and listen to something that's unspokenBeatrice Ng-Kessler: because of our cultural background. There's a lot of things you're notsupposed to say like your therapist. Say, Oh, you must feel blah blah, and you may not feelthat's exactly right. But your tendency will told you. Yeah, yeah.© schematherapytrainingonline.comWhat’s the Schemata? A Podcast for Schema Therapists with Chris Hayes & Rob BrockmanPage 9 of 25Beatrice Ng-Kessler: you don't bother to clarify. Robert Brockman: Yeah. And it's so tough ifyou Robert Brockman: you know. Oftentimes in the process things happen in therapy, andthen the client knows they're going to see you next week. So the process continues, but thenthey wouldn't see you, maybe for a month or 2 months, and then they just got to hang thereand sit with that feeling for like for a long time, so it can. It is a big constraint, let's say so.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah, and also the rapport building. Right? You have a lot of, you know,almost like every time you and you see them, you have to build your rapport again. RobertBrockman: So, Beatrice Ng-Kessler, thinking about this dimension of Collectivist versusindividualistic. Robert Brockman: And you know what are some, some practical ways thatyou've had to adapt your schema therapy.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: I would say you have to be quite creative in how you do limitedreparenting, for example.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: I often tell my supervisor that you know I consider surfing tea, for myclient is part of my limited repair, andBeatrice Ng-Kessler: because in our culture, you know, like when, especially when you feelyour client feel shameful.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: almost like there's not much thing you can say without acting on theshame when they are at that moment feeling really shameful. So you need somethingnonverbal. But you can't hurt your client right most of the time, so you need to dosomething without saying too much, and I found serving tea is one of the really good way todo it in our culture. And another way is, you know, I remember what they likeBeatrice Ng-Kessler: that would add on it, you know they would feel the connection that Iwould give them like. Oh, here is the your favorite green tea. I put it here, you know. That'swhat I that's all I say when they are crying, and I know they experience huge shame insidethem.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: And this is one of those where we need to nonverbal stuff that wewould need to adapt when it comes to the limited parenting. Robert Brockman: Yeah. Sothat's cool. That's a really practical thing. So you've got a big old box of tea in the corner, andyou're ready to make some tea, if you know if it feels right. If it feels like it's going to add tothe connection and the care.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah. Yeah. When I, when I was in Hong Kong, I used to have a bunch oftea for selection. So from the very beginning. I know what. Robert Brockman: Yeah.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Client will always select.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: So I would remember that, and then, when necessary, I would take youknow I would use those information. Robert Brockman: Go and get them some jasmine,some jasmine tea. Always. Robert Brockman: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Robert Brockman: Nice.© schematherapytrainingonline.comWhat’s the Schemata? A Podcast for Schema Therapists with Chris Hayes & Rob BrockmanPage 10 of 25Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah. Robert Brockman: Reminds me some of my Asian clients inAustralia. They'll say things like, you know, when I fight with Mom or something. She won'ttalk to me, but then, you know, eventually she'll come and ask me like she's made soup orsomething, and so there won't be a sort of discussion about. I'm sorry, or something likethis, or I'm trying to understand. But they'll understand that it's kind of over. If Mom'sserving some food or soup and took some effort. Yeah.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember there were another time that I I boughtthe favorite food of one of my clients. It's a kind of a tartBeatrice Ng-Kessler: that is not very easy to find, but I prepare it. And then for the session,because she has lots of trauma, so she's very easy to dissociate at the same time. So thatwould help, you know, like not just to build a rapport feeling safe, feeling being careful. Youremember what I want. You want extra money to get me the cake that I like, but also that'spart of the things that she can use toBeatrice Ng-Kessler: grant herself.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: When she feels so triggered. Robert Brockman: Yeah.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: So I think that kind of thing matters. You know those very smallobservations that you madeBeatrice Ng-Kessler: that would come way very. Robert Brockman: Yeah, I did. I was talkingto Susan Simpson not very long ago, like last week, and she because she, of course, workingwith eating disorders. Robert Brockman: and she was saying that that something similarpathways that Robert Brockman: you know, some clients, they, because in their family oforigin, oftentimes they've been restricted of food. Robert Brockman: and they develop. Shecalls almost like a food deprivation schema. Robert Brockman: and it feels very similar toemotional deprivation when your parents don't provide for you in that way. You feelhungry, but you also feel unloved and uncared about. So she was saying. There's a specialconnection between the provision of food in the family of origin and the provision of care,that it's a physical aspect of care.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah. Robert Brockman: So she draws similar conclusions, not in acultural way, but in actually a.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah. Robert Brockman: Bye, yeah.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah. And I can add on the cultural favor right here by, you know, frommore collectively culture, or I should say, more Chinese culture right here, because it's veryspecific about food. Food is something the parents would show love to their children. Theydon't say I love you almost. You know you almost you don't hear it, and but they cook thefood that you like. Robert Brockman: Yeah.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: They make you eat it, they make sure you eat enough until you almostexplode, you know that's the that's the parents showing how much I care about you. Robert© schematherapytrainingonline.comWhat’s the Schemata? A Podcast for Schema Therapists with Chris Hayes & Rob BrockmanPage 11 of 25Brockman: Yeah. So so okay, when I come to Hong Kong and my colleagues take me toChinese food. And I put on 5 kilos from eating Chinese every night. Robert Brockman: This isa way of expressing care and connection.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Certainly. Robert Brockman: Yeah.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: That'd be. Robert Brockman: Okay, that's I'm understanding. Now whatthat's about. Yeah.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah. Robert Brockman: Yeah, I definitely felt that, you know, lots offolk offers to come and eat, and it's all revolving around food.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yay! Robert Brockman: So what about imagery? I guess. RobertBrockman: How does that land? I've got some ideas I've also tested out. And how have youhad to modify your approach to imagery. We know also that imagery can be quiteconfrontational, like how Robert Brockman: yes, with parents and whatnot. How have youapproached that so far.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah, I think that imagery scraping. There's quite some adaptationsright there, and also the empathetic confrontations with the client's parents. So sometimesthe imagery is doing this work, and it has to be so tactfulBeatrice Ng-Kessler: that sometimes I explain to my ex pet super. I see that you have an ideaof. You'll be parenting the client's parents.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: So so in a way, you know that that is actually the empatheticconfrontation that we need.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: For example, like you don't confront the parents in front of thechildrenBeatrice Ng-Kessler: because that makes them lose faith in our culture. Robert Brockman:So this is another big one. This is another big cultural issue.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah. Robert Brockman: Losing. Fat. Robert Brockman: Yeah. RobertBrockman: Face. Yeah.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah, yeah, you can't do that. So no, no, you can't do that in front of thekids. You have to move them, you know, can we speak in a room so so? And but in theimagery you have to also make sure the client can hear that the vulnerable child. More canalso hear how you are standing up for them and protecting them. Robert Brockman: So youmight modify.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: And to hear.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yes, yes. Robert Brockman: In terms of having sorry. So I'm just tryingto think this through you might modify into in terms of having the child in another room© schematherapytrainingonline.comWhat’s the Schemata? A Podcast for Schema Therapists with Chris Hayes & Rob BrockmanPage 12 of 25where? Where they're not. They're not seeing the Robert Brockman: they're not seeing theparent.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah. Usually I bring the parents in another room to speak.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: and I would make sure, like the child can hear.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: But they can't see. Robert Brockman: So you're saying, Okay, littleJenny. I want you to go to your room now, and the doors are jars. You can hear we're gonnahave a talk. You can understand what's happening right? But but this is a conversationbetween me and your mother. Robert Brockman: Okay, you can listen in. I'm talking to,mum. Now, can you hear? Yeah, something like this? Yeah, yeah.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Do it as. Robert Brockman: Some kind of modified script or anything.No.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: No, no, for until I do supervision, I start to see my my supervisorwanted, but, like I usually bring the parents to their room, so leave the child there. So if if Ican take the clients healthy at the moment with me, that would be the healthy at the mostjob to stay with the one. Robert Brockman: Oh, so you're being very creative. Actually, youknow. Robert Brockman: Yep, yep, I can see using the cultural principles and being verycreative.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah, yeah. And I might remove the parents, but make sure that theycan hear it outside without seeing it. And the point is not just that, you know to removethem, so the parent doesn't feel to lose face, but also the child feel less guilty, you know, ifthe child can see their parents was being lectured. That's how they would feel, you know,like, or someone talking because of me.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Someone talking. Robert Brockman: Oh, my God!Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Balancing that way.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: They feel too guilty. Robert Brockman: So actually the and this is whatit means when people say, what if? What if the rebuking? What if the intervention makesRobert Brockman: the client feel worse, it becomes iatrogenic. And it could be that yourintervention makes the client feel more guilty. Right? And that would be Robert Brockman:yeah, not what we want.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah, so you were trying to manage it. But at the same time I oftenencourage my supervisor. See? Like you know, don't feel too discouraged. If your client docome out and tell you they feel guilty doesn't mean you fail. You will have to see it, as this ispart of the package of healing as well. It's just natural that they feel that way.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: It comes together. It's almost like, you know, for parents. If their childget hurt in some way the parents feel guilty, no matter what it's not, it's not about. They© schematherapytrainingonline.comWhat’s the Schemata? A Podcast for Schema Therapists with Chris Hayes & Rob BrockmanPage 13 of 25really responsible for the accident, but they somehow feel they should do something. RobertBrockman: Yep.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: You know you. Robert Brockman: Yeah, it's normal. It's feeling guilty isnormal, like having some conscience. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Robert Brockman: okay. And so theprinciple I'm getting. And this came up in in our research, too. Robert Brockman: You knowthose sort of harsh rebuking Robert Brockman: that are classic schema therapy whereyou're kicking out the parent. And you're saying, what's wrong? Robert Brockman: Yeah.Robert Brockman: And these kind of things.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah, yeah. Robert Brockman: This isn't.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Fine. Robert Brockman: Is, this is not in most.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Bye. Robert Brockman: Not recommended.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: In a child. Robert Brockman: And slash, probably Asian culturalbackground. We had it in Singapore, too. The same advice Robert Brockman: this is this isalmost always not a good idea.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Unless the parents are abusive. Robert Brockman: Right. So if they're,you know, in the act of hurting a child in the image. Robert Brockman: But what aboutverbally abusive.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: So that's a good point. Because in in the Chinese context, like a lot ofcritical parent mode, and quite a match with the primitive parent mode.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: so they come with a good intention when they are being critical anddemanding.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: But the language can go into a very primitive, paramount, like personalattack, like. Robert Brockman: Yeah.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Being almost verbally abusive. So we, our job is to try to see when theclient is here and when the client is being alternative parent there, and in the chair work, forexample, I would separate them into 2 chairs.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: in the imagery. That is much more tricky because the therapists. Theyhave to see it. When is the time that you have to change your strategyBeatrice Ng-Kessler: when you're working with the parents.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: and you have to also psycho. Educate the client! Why, you havechanged from here to here, why, you are trying to negotiate and talk to them properly. Andthen suddenly, there's a moment you have to stop and ask them to stop talking. You don'thumiliate the client anymore. So you're educating the client that what is totally. RobertBrockman: So so your basic stance, usually in in this cultural context with parents, parents© schematherapytrainingonline.comWhat’s the Schemata? A Podcast for Schema Therapists with Chris Hayes & Rob BrockmanPage 14 of 25meaning in the image Robert Brockman: is based on more of an empathic confrontationapproach.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: It's it happens often. Robert Brockman: You're dialing down, you'redialing down the rebuking right to something that looks more like empathic confrontation,even even with a big emphasis on empathy and compassion.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: And so this is the confrontational part more. But the empathetic part.How do we deliver it? Sometimes? It's like you have to really go into the parents world alittle bit in your head like you have to understand how that parents may feel in that context.For example, like lots of father are not quite involved in any childcare, any household work.So so the mom is super exhausted. So you have to speak from. Robert Brockman: So you'retalking. Look, I know you're so exhausted. You're doing so many things for the family. You'relooking after your parents, too. You're looking after 3 generations.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah, yeah. Robert Brockman: You know you have all theseresponsibilities. So, showing that kind of empathy.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's the language part. And also I will offer like, doyou want me to help? How about you? Now go to West, and I take care of your child rightnow. Don't worry. I will be okay to do it, you know. Or do you want me to wash the dishesfor you. So it's an act of service. That's the way we deliver love.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: You don't just talk because they feel a little, you know. Yeah. So youknow, or like, they don't feel so receptive from a collective listed culture by just talking. Butyou have to do something that would help them to feel more, you know, relief or sooth. Andthen the child also feel more relief from the guilt.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Because you're really taking care of my mom right now. RobertBrockman: And that's what it meant, what you meant when you're when you're saying thatoftentimes you find yourself looking after the child mode within the parent within theimage.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah, yeah. That's why I told my supervisor like, you'll be parentingyour clients. Parents like that. Robert Brockman: Yeah.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: And that is part of your work of with parenting the vulnerable trauma.Robert Brockman: You're keeping little mum in mind Robert Brockman: like like. So nowwe're getting very meta.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yes. Robert Brockman: But we're kind of keeping in mind thevulnerabilities of the parent and what they're going.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yes, yes, exactly. Yes. Robert Brockman: As usually oftentimes, that Ithink that's kind of missing in our model. It's kind of assumed. No, this is bad parenting. Thisneeds to be. This has to stop this. We're calling this out. We're going to call this out. RobertBrockman: you know. It's less of that and more of the empathic confrontation.© schematherapytrainingonline.comWhat’s the Schemata? A Podcast for Schema Therapists with Chris Hayes & Rob BrockmanPage 15 of 25Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah. Yeah. And then then that's partly the culture. Right? We see, wedefine ourselves with relationship.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: So you cannot be so clear cut like, oh, this is her, and this is me.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: This is our relationship.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: So how do I navigate this part in between. Robert Brockman: So thatthings are more enmeshed in a sort of normalised way. That's what you're saying.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: From the westernized lens, they would think, oh, this is a mesh! It itdoes fulfill the criteria. Robert Brockman: But in a normal life.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Like. Robert Brockman: Want to say, like.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Exactly like the video piety. Right? Like, you know, you're supposed tomatch your parents expectations. Robert Brockman: Okay, you bring up an important point,because Robert Brockman: one of the issues that has came up in the study is the issue of, asyou say filial piety. Robert Brockman: and this is a Confucian philosophical principle thatseems to be important across most of Southeast Asian cultures. Robert Brockman: Can youdefine filial piety for us and describe its impact that it might have on, let's say, thedevelopment of certain schemes and modes.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah. Yeah. And filial piety is something I would say doesn't exist in theindividualistic culture. You know, I marry a white guy. So I think I have some reference forthe context, because it filial piety includes that you, as a child, you have to make yourparents feel proud. The relationship have to be happy and peaceful, and you are expected tomatch your parents expectations.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: You don't argue with your parents, and you have to please them.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: So that's part of the things that you know. This is more in a moreindividualistic culture.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: and you can see how it wouldBeatrice Ng-Kessler: very possibly facilitate some enmeshment right there. RobertBrockman: Yeah. And this, I mean, it sounds like a nice idea in a lot of ways, right? That youknow, younger generation looking after the old generation. I guess in the beginning it'solder generation looking after the younger generation. And it's a kind of circle. RobertBrockman: the things that that and you, you know this, the things that becomes difficult iswhen one or more of the parents are either Robert Brockman: mentally unstable or justoutright, violent or bullying.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yay! Robert Brockman: Let's say, let's let's say, let's just saynarcissistic. Okay, if you had a narcissistic.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Sorry.© schematherapytrainingonline.comWhat’s the Schemata? A Podcast for Schema Therapists with Chris Hayes & Rob BrockmanPage 16 of 25Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah. Robert Brockman: You have to be filial to this person. RobertBrockman: What kind of challenge does that throw up? And I'm going to put it on you now,Beatrice Ng-Kessler, how do you navigate this.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah, it's so difficult. I have clients struggle with this kind of trauma.And it's very, very difficult, because it violate your basic value system inside you that you,the whole upbringing, tell you, or the whole environment.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: educate you off. So it's really, really difficult to strengthen the healthierpart to an extent that you can see. There's some right there that I haven't met. I haven't havewhen I was smaller.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: soBeatrice Ng-Kessler: right there, like, you know. We have to see a few things before we cango to the narcissistic, really pathological part. So we have the freedom to express ouremotion and needs as one of the core needs right.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: And in the, you know, feeling of piety, this culture. It doesn't promotethat. Robert Brockman: You. You are not promote to express your needs or promotions.Robert Brockman: because it might upset your parents.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Exactly. The orientation is at the parents, not at the child. Right? Sothat's a fundamental difference there.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: But at the same time it made us have the sense of intimacy and loveBeatrice Ng-Kessler: experience in a very different way, as what you have mentioned, likethe commitmentBeatrice Ng-Kessler: right, the commitment of taking care of the elderly, or we taking care ofone another right? We have much stronger obligations in the in the way that we grow up,and we are educated, that we are moreBeatrice Ng-Kessler: concern or emphasize on our responsibility and obligation betweenone another, so the intimacy and the love is experienced fluid. But when your parents is anarcissistic parents that becomes something really, really difficult, because the parentsthemselves doesn't manifest in the way they supposed to be. You know, it's not exactlywhere you educate them. Robert Brockman: And in a Western culture there's a much moreof well, if that's the case, your parents need boundaries.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yes. Robert Brockman: So, you know, we would talk to people aboutsetting boundaries with their adult parents and Robert Brockman: those kind of things thatbecomes much harder when the culture says you have to be filial to this person.© schematherapytrainingonline.comWhat’s the Schemata? A Podcast for Schema Therapists with Chris Hayes & Rob BrockmanPage 17 of 25Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yes. Robert Brockman: What's your advice? Let's say to your clientsgenerally, who are stuck in that situation. How do you navigate that? The fact that how doyou promote their individuation? Where that's a core problem.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah. And then, and you have to bring the client to seeBeatrice Ng-Kessler: how their parents is not the typical parents. If they are narcissistic,way to that level. So you have to bring them to see their parents. It's notBeatrice Ng-Kessler: what they expect, but we're far from it to a level that's not average, soyou have to bring them to see it, because they can't see it. Robert Brockman: So you stillhave to undermine. What you're saying is, you're still undermining the parent in a wayyou're saying that.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: You can say undermining, you can say undermining as a as a term, Iwould say, to bring them to see the reality. You know if the clients are narcissistic wherethey are doing it for their own good, but not for the for the children. Robert Brockman:Yeah, yeah.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: All, they are manipulative, abusive, and controlling. Robert Brockman:And I agree. I agree with you like, I think that's probably going to be useful. Like to see tosee it for what it is. Robert Brockman: but in a sense, within a filial worldview that can beseen as undermining the relationship. No.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah. So the how is not so I'm talking about the principle right to bringthem to see it. But how to bring them to see it. One of the thing is the imagery. Scripting isreally useful.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Sometimes, when they revisit the childhood experience with someprotection. For example, when I do the imagery scripting, I would ask them to more, seeingit as a 1st person perspective.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: So they don't become the wonderful child anymore, because it's toomuch too painful. If their parents are so abusive, they have to have that distance to see theirown right there, so they can start to have a little, you know self-compassion to see that. Oh,this is what that child suffered, or if that's an even moreBeatrice Ng-Kessler: severe situations, I may ask them to imagine that something that theytell me about their own experience happened to. For example, the student. RobertBrockman: Yeah.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: To another person that they care for.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Then they can have a little bit different perspective to see what is reallyhappening. But it takes a very long time. This process. Robert Brockman: Yeah.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: That they can really internalize.© schematherapytrainingonline.comWhat’s the Schemata? A Podcast for Schema Therapists with Chris Hayes & Rob BrockmanPage 18 of 25Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Oh, this is if this is actually what it is, it's not my fault. It's not me beingdisloyal. Robert Brockman: I've had some Asian supervisees even use chair work in a verycreative way to put. They've put sort of Chinese culture on a chair, or put Confucius on achair, or this kind of things, to start a dialogue with the culture as a sort of critic.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: And. Robert Brockman: Rather than talk to their parents per se, but totalk to Robert Brockman: culture, and to understand where that comes from, and the sort ofmessage that they receive. Have you ever done anything like that.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: No, because it's have to. You know the client have to be very educatedand very conceptualBeatrice Ng-Kessler: right if we have to do a level of of that. I haven't did that before, but Ido have, you know, except I don't usually put the parents on the chair unless in a quite alater stage of therapy. Robert Brockman: Yeah.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Healthy animal is really well developed. Robert Brockman: That's aweird tip that I found even I found that. And that's even for non-Asian clients when theystruggle with loyalty, problems with their parents.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah. Robert Brockman: Really clear that what we're talking to now isyour inner critic. Okay, and drop it Robert Brockman: any parent metaphor. This is not yourinner parent. This is your inner critic, and that's been giving you a hard time and get awayfrom the sort of idea that you're interacting with the parents Robert Brockman: that seemsto be really helpful in starting to help them with their inner critic without getting into a kindof guilt. Inducing type issues.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: And we have to also emphasize in the process of that therapy. Right?We have to emphasize that you know the goal is for you to love your parents so it's sodifficult to love someone that's abusive.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: right? It's like, what do you mean by love them? Right? So it's how can Ilove without being, you know, within the filial piety? So what this love means? So you haveto educate them like you have to have that safe space and certain distance psychologically,physically, to feel you are safe. And you're healthy in order to be able to love that personBeatrice Ng-Kessler: without, you know, broken without yourself, broken and damaged andunhealthy. So that is the way that you have to. Robert Brockman: There is some ways thatyou're setting boundaries. The boundaries are just not as dramatic, you know RobertBrockman: the way you put it like. So so you know it's not that you have to leave the homenecessarily and go and get your own flat unit and tell your mom I'm not, you know I'm onlycoming over once a month or something. Robert Brockman: It's less dramatic. You might bestuck there. That's another feature. Actually, I found in Asia. I think house accommodation isvery expensive, so there's often multi-generational living Robert Brockman: are living withtheir parents and their grandparents for a long time. That's a separate issue. But it doespresent challenges to Robert Brockman: clients who are trying to individuate and to set© schematherapytrainingonline.comWhat’s the Schemata? A Podcast for Schema Therapists with Chris Hayes & Rob BrockmanPage 19 of 25boundaries. Robert Brockman: yeah, you remind me like one of the. And I wonder wehaven't spoken of this. One of the strategies that I've seen work Robert Brockman: aroundthis is Robert Brockman: where there's a less dramatic boundary setting is that I find thatthe children adult children would start to individuate more outside of the house where theyhave their own life.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yes. Robert Brockman: Have the Yes friends, they have their own.They're doing things. They're probably being naughty as well. Robert Brockman: But whenthey come home they're very much saving face for the mom and filial. Robert Brockman:And so there's the kind of 2 worlds going on there as well in the way they set boundaries.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yes, sometimes it's Oh, I can. I can say the FH would appear that way,and that's exactly why, sometimes, you know, if it depends on how healthy or what is. Myclients go in therapy.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: but sometimes, you know, for some clients they are more, you know, ina healthier stage and seeking more self-growth. I would I would talk to them about how youcan really feel intimate with your parents.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: You know the so-called confrontation is not actually a separation, butseeking them. You really feel intimate with them because you are really honest.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: because you're really authentic, because you're really willing to takethe risk that your parents is angry and doesn't feel. Don't feel happy of what you're saying.But you're still taking this risk to let them understand you.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: That's actually a path to be actually more intimate by a little bit viewBeatrice Ng-Kessler: that may sound confrontational in a Chinese context. So that's a riskassessment right there of how you would take it, you know. Handle it tactfully. And wouldyou pursue that path to seek that intimacy within your family? That's the client's choice.Robert Brockman: Yeah, it makes sense. Robert Brockman: And what about? I mean, theother thing that came up in our study was the expression of emotions. So you know culturaldifferences in the expression of emotions. Robert Brockman: Do you find that's more of anissue, you know, is emotional inhibition more common in your Asian clients, and is there aneed to adjust your approach.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: I I do feel, you know. I'm not sure they are entirely equal to emotionalinhibition schemaBeatrice Ng-Kessler: but I do feel like the most Asian science. They tend to be more reservedin their emotional expression.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: including myself. So I can. I can easily relate to how they don't easilyverbalize how they feel, because that's not in their culture. They don't train to do that.Robert Brockman: Did you get? Are you less emotionally inhibited now that you're a schema© schematherapytrainingonline.comWhat’s the Schemata? A Podcast for Schema Therapists with Chris Hayes & Rob BrockmanPage 20 of 25therapist like? Did Robert Brockman: did you hear some of that, or did you? Did you changethat.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: I would say, you know, like, if I'm communicating with an expats, Iwould definitely have a different model. Robert Brockman: Oh, wow! You have. You havedifferent modes. Robert Brockman: I'm talking 2 modes as a therapist you got like RobertBrockman: Chinese mode, and you got Western expat mode. And and you can switch. RobertBrockman: Yeah, yeah.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah, I feel the difference in the way that I express my emotions. Andbut I do need some warm up. I would say, you know, compared to the people withindividualistic culture, they are more just right away they can express. But for me, youknow, I learned the words. I learned the tools. Not necessarily, I would apply it. It reallydepends on the context.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: because it is also overly expressive. If it's in some more reserve orcollective. Robert Brockman: Isn't it.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Ultra. Robert Brockman: Hmm.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: It becomes over. People are like, Yeah, that's your monologue. RobertBrockman: It was put to us in our study like one of the threads was. It was kind of explainedthat Robert Brockman: it's not that everyone, let's say in Hong Kong is emotion inhibited.It's just that the average in the bell curve is different. So you know, the bell curve kind ofmoved. Robert Brockman: And so you know, the most expressive person in in, let's say inHong Kong is still within the normal range of a more western sample. Robert Brockman:Right. It's just that the average is less on average than a Western sample. So you can imaginethe bell curves kind of move to one end. But there's so much overlap like on average peopleare still within each other's averages. I don't know if I kind of got that right. But RobertBrockman: so and actually, I'm pretty sure it was, Cliff was saying this. He was one of thestudy authors. Robert Brockman: you know he was sort of saying that he believes that whenpeople learn to do schema therapy in that culture, it's they shouldn't probably try to go andbe Robert Brockman: be Rob Brockman, or to be their trainer, the Western trainer, and todo it in such an expressive way it might be a little bit of a mistake, but to find the rightbandwidth. Yes, to turn up the emotional resonance. But within the window of tolerance, forfor the culture.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yes, yes, yes, that's a very good way to put it. Yeah, yeah. RobertBrockman: Found that.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah. And within the window of tolerance. That's exactly it. RobertBrockman: So we do want.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: You can't attune to your. Robert Brockman: Do want our Asian schematherapists to be more expressive. We want them to take the model seriously and to promote© schematherapytrainingonline.comWhat’s the Schemata? A Podcast for Schema Therapists with Chris Hayes & Rob BrockmanPage 21 of 25emotional expression, but also to keep in mind the window of tolerance that they don't haveto do it exactly the same way that they learn or.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yes. Robert Brockman: Because it might be slightly inappropriate. Sothey've got to find. And it's always.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yes. Robert Brockman: Hard to define. Where is where is the window?Right.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah. Yeah. And that'sBeatrice Ng-Kessler: is, there's 2 way to see it, too. So that's what you said. I found it veryvalid and applicable. And also we also need to bear in mind your client may feel some griefthere.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: It may sound very weird. So because if you adopt a way to be moreexplicit, to verbalizeBeatrice Ng-Kessler: you. You have to second, find some kind of connection that you use tofeel from no, no need to speak like this. You know what I mean.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: The connection that from our own culture, like our intimacy, is comingfrom. I don't speak, my niece, and you know it. Robert Brockman: Hmm, hmm.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Right, but you have to willing to navigate that part before you can learnthe language, and to be very explicitBeatrice Ng-Kessler: and become much more verbalizing your emotions.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: So there's a 2 things happening there, and the clients have to alsoexperience this part of griefBeatrice Ng-Kessler: before they can earn those things that you have just said. RobertBrockman: Okay, okay. Now, now, I've got 2 more questions for you, and then I think we canstart wrapping up. Robert Brockman: what? What general advice do you have for the for theAsian therapist who wants to start their schema journey? Robert Brockman: What sort ofadvice do you have for them? Is it. Is it worth it? Robert Brockman: Is it something that youwould that you would recommend.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Of course, of course, because I think that's something reallyBeatrice Ng-Kessler: important for us, for people from our culture partly is. I also see, thebenefit of, you know, able to be verbalizing your feelings and your needs would help insetting boundaries when things are very unspoken. It's very difficult to set boundaries, theboundaries where we wait.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: So I see in general that something really how chemotherapy bring in tothis culture is really positive and helpful. Robert Brockman: Yeah. And what advice do you© schematherapytrainingonline.comWhat’s the Schemata? A Podcast for Schema Therapists with Chris Hayes & Rob BrockmanPage 22 of 25have for Robert Brockman: the schema therapists from non-Asian backgrounds, whoinvariably will work with Asian clients or clients with diverse backgrounds and comingfrom collectivist cultures. Robert Brockman: What advice do you give the non-Asian, non-collectivist sort of background therapists about working cross-culturally.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: I think that the most important one, I think, is that the therapist have tounderstand they have to be a safe space with their clients, and that's something they mayfeel likely to constantly working on.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: because they have to show them this is safe to express themselves, andthey have to show they are very liberal. They were open. They may not know everything,but we're curious about what the clients really experiencing. So this is like you wereexpanding the client's window of tolerance in terms of expression. So it's not so direct like Igive the language, please use it.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: It's more like how they can feel they can do it. And you are not judgingthem. That's something really important as a basics. Robert Brockman: It's so interesting,like Robert Brockman: the thing that I always try to. Probably my own framework is I try toreach out and let them know that Robert Brockman: I realized that things might be a littledifferent for them, culturally, and open up, as you say, a safe space for that. RobertBrockman: that I don't assume anything. You know. I don't assume one way or the other.But I'm curious about okay. Where did you grow up? What were things like in yourbackground. How can that affect your problems? How can that affect this space? I'm curious.I want to learn. I want to understand. So I try to make a safe space culturally, and to let themknow I'm not assuming anything at this stage, one way or the other. Robert Brockman:because I also found the the opposite is also true. Sometimes you can assume. Oh, you knowshe's from Hong Kong. She must. It must be like this. Robert Brockman: That's also kind ofnot cool on occasions, too. So I think when you say safe space, I do, of course, agree withthat. Robert Brockman: If for me.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yes. Robert Brockman: Safe cultural space, like where I'm not really anexpert on that. But I but I'm curious, and I want to understand, and I'm willing to makesome adjustments, you know, together.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah, yeah, yeah, and also like having this, you know, a little culturalelements in our head that is not used to trying to oversimplify the clients in front of us, butalso, but more like pointing us to ask a more appropriate questions. Robert Brockman:Yeah.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: You know, like, Oh, does that? Does that? Is that something you meanthis way? And can I clarify?Beatrice Ng-Kessler: You know, or I see you are a little hesitated just now. Would you tellme what had just happened? You know, like you pay close attention and ask moreappropriate questions. Robert Brockman: And this could be the last question, because and Ithink you also sit in a good spot with this, because you also have. Your husband is a© schematherapytrainingonline.comWhat’s the Schemata? A Podcast for Schema Therapists with Chris Hayes & Rob BrockmanPage 23 of 25European, and you have children also that are European and Chinese Robert Brockman: isthe aspect of people who come from diverse backgrounds. Robert Brockman: and how thisalso makes the work Robert Brockman: more interesting, more diverse. It's not a simplestory, right? Like so.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yes. Robert Brockman: Have a background where they're partly fromhere and partly from here. How do you deal with those kind of 3rd culture RobertBrockman: kind of people.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah, it's yeah, that's we. We always have to be very curious. That'show I feel. Like, you know, you want to know this person, that, and maybe you don't put it ina box like this is Chinese person.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: This is Australian, you know. You don't put them in a box. You see themas a person, because the Australian may be living in China for 20 years.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: right? Like. So there's a lot of merging there that we want to see thatperson so that we can attune to that person. So we become more aware of the stereotypethat in our head, or the assumptions that we have. So when we have more of this awareness,we can be better attuned and connect to the clients. Robert Brockman: Yeah, makes sense.Robert Brockman: Well, that's been invigorating, Beatrice Ng-Kessler, sort of RobertBrockman: overview of some of some of the issues and some of your work. And I know thatthe process is going to be ongoing. There's still a lot of work to be done in understandinghow this work sort of fits within different cultures. And we're really happy to have youheading up some of that work. I just wanted to mention a few things. This is a sort of plugRobert Brockman: time of the Podcast number one. I'm super excited. Our Cambridge Guideto Schema therapy has officially, it's officially being translated into simplified Chinese. It'scalled the Chinese edition, so that will be coming out.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Great. Robert Brockman: September, I believe for those, because I dothink there'll be a lot of Chinese and Asian schema therapists listening to this, podcastRobert Brockman: we've got some training coming up this year. We already ran level. Onetraining in Hong Kong. Once we have one cohort already graduated. Robert Brockman: wehave another training coming up in June of this year in Hong Kong, in Central Hong KongIsland, right.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah. Robert Brockman: Yeah, if. And also, we have Level 2 coming uplater on. I think it's in October or September. That's with Chris Hayes also with you, BeatriceNg-Kessler, training alongside him and myself. Robert Brockman: and if you want to checkthose out, just go to schematherapytraining.com, and then click on Hong Kong, and you'llsee the links there to go through there. Robert Brockman: I know also, Beatrice Ng-Kessler,you have your own. You have some other trainings going on, and opportunities in this space.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah. And in June I'm going to give a 1 day class in Cantonese. So it'smore for the cannon speaker. I think that's the 1st Cantonese class in the world. So I'm goingto demonstrate some, you know, experiential intervention like what I've just described, and© schematherapytrainingonline.comWhat’s the Schemata? A Podcast for Schema Therapists with Chris Hayes & Rob BrockmanPage 24 of 25there will be video demonstration as well. So I'm very excited to it. The class is almost fullright now, and I'm planning to give another 2 h class in September online.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: which probably name something like cultural adaptation in schematherapy.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: and it will be in English. So both cards can be found from the Chineseschema therapy website. Robert Brockman: Yeah, which is chineseschemotherapy.com, andyou'll see Beatrice Ng-Kessler has all her blogs and everything up there. Robert Brockman:and I really recommend her blogs on these matters. They're very in-depth and veryinteresting. Robert Brockman: So it's a good place to start. I have to mention last plug, Ipromise guys, because I've also got some really cool partners over in Singapore whosupport our work over there. Also in spreading the word about schema therapy. RobertBrockman: And that's Annabelle psychology over in Singapore. So if anyone's a bit closer toSingapore and they want to get some schema therapy training, you can go to Annabellepsychology and you'll find the training and then schema therapy training. You can see Chrisand I get over there usually once a year as well do our level. One level. 2 trainings. RobertBrockman: Beatrice Ng-Kessler. Thanks for coming on board and sharing your work with us,and thanks everyone for tuning in. See, you guys.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Thank you. Thanks for having me too. Robert Brockman: Thanks,patriots! Bye.Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Bye.SummaryIn this episode of 'What's the Schemata?', Robert Brockman interviews Beatrice Ng-Kessler,a private practitioner based in London and founder of the Chinese Schema TherapyAcademy in Hong Kong. They discuss Beatrice’s journey into schema therapy, her culturalbackground, and the unique challenges of applying schema therapy within a Chinesecultural context. Beatrice shares insights from her experience working with both Westernand Chinese clients and reflects on how practicing schema therapy has been a personallytransformative experience for her. The conversation explores themes of cultural sensitivity,supervision, and the importance of adapting therapeutic techniques for diverse populations.Key Points • Beatrice Ng-Kessler is a pioneer in schema therapy in China and Hong Kong, recentlyaccredited as a supervisor. • Her experience spans both individualistic (Western) and collectivist (Chinese) culturalcontexts. • Practicing schema therapy with Western clients helped her build tolerance foremotional expression and explicit techniques.© schematherapytrainingonline.comWhat’s the Schemata? A Podcast for Schema Therapists with Chris Hayes & Rob BrockmanPage 25 of 25 • She has found schema therapy to be a personally healing process, strengthening herown Healthy Adult mode. • Cultural differences require careful adaptation of reparenting and imagery techniques. • Supervision played a critical role in her development, offering a corrective emotionalexperience. • She emphasizes the importance of verbalizing nuanced clinical knowledge acrosscultures.© schematherapytrainingonline.comWhat’s the Schemata? A Podcast for Schema Therapists with Chris Hayes & Rob Brockman
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